Retention and Recruitment Crisis

Cookie_ said:
I went through airborne with a MARSOC guy. I remember him saying the Navy had its own static-line course, but that it was perceived worse with safety issues.

There may have also been something about graduates of the navy course not being allowed to attend HALO? Not sure if that's correct, because this was just a passing conversation a bit over 3 years ago.
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The Army is the proponent branch for all things airborne. For years (maybe still?) if you didn't graduate from an Army jump school you couldn't go to the Army JM course The same for the Air Force Academy's cute little jump club that awards wings: if you want to be in an airborne unit then you have to attend the Army course. I think MFF is the same, but could be mistaken. The NSW courses weren't recognized by the Army, but I don't know if that changed.

Kind of like how the AF "owns" JTAC certification. USASOC eventually set up its own course at Yuma, but that had to blessed by the AF if memory serves.
 
Cookie_ said:
I went through airborne with a MARSOC guy. I remember him saying the Navy had its own static-line course, but that it was perceived worse with safety issues.

There may have also been something about graduates of the navy course not being allowed to attend HALO? Not sure if that's correct, because this was just a passing conversation a bit over 3 years ago.
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Devildoc said:
I do not think they have an in-house airborne course. The corpsmen in the SOIDC pipeline go to Ft. Benning.

Once upon a time the Navy had multiple sites for SCUBA and Marines and corpsmen could go to one of several sites; now, it's all in Florida. I am not sure there is a backlog for diver like airborne but it seems that of there is such a backlog for airborne they can take the show on the road. Or, I have no idea what I am talking about. I am open to that.
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NSW has an in house static line course that’s coupled with a freefall curriculum. 4 weeks total to get full jump qualified. Great set up.

They figured out that airborne school is 4 days of training packed into 3 weeks… I know AFSOC sends dudes to the freefall portion, idk if that counts for basic airborne wings per the Air Force (@amlove21 can clarify).

The Marin Corpse still sends all their dudes to Benning for static line quals. Then go to their own MFF course, while still attending JM and MFFJM with the Army.
 
DasBoot said:
NSW has an in house static line course that’s coupled with a freefall curriculum. 4 weeks total to get full jump qualified. Great set up.

They figured out that airborne school is 4 days of training packed into 3 weeks… I know AFSOC sends dudes to the freefall portion, idk if that counts for basic airborne wings per the Air Force (@amlove21 can clarify).

The Marin Corpse still sends all their dudes to Benning for static line quals. Then go to their own MFF course, while still attending JM and MFFJM with the Army.
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It's a little bit convoluted- the Army is supposed to own all airborne/freefall schools and you have to get certified by the Army in order to run your own. As in all things, "joint" is spelled A-R-M-Y. They even own the "mountaineering" course, so in order to be SOCOM compliant, I have to send PJ's to the Army for the Army to teach them about rope rescue. Anywhoo, the jump stuff goes like this.

The Navy somehow got the static line/freefall course certified, but only for Navy (for static line) but the freefall course was totally fine? The Air Force sent our students there forever, but they had to go to Army SL first. They can wear both wings.

Then, the Navy got audited and there were issues, which forced the AF to no longer send dudes to the Navy Freefall school. And then the AF tried to stand their own Freefall school up, and didn't make it through the Army certification process (which was wild because we had students in the pipeline go to the course, graduate, then the Army was like "nah", then those students had to go BACK through Army freefall).

So, as it stands, I think we are all (all branches) back to Benning for Static Line and Yuma for freefall, which has caused huge issues. I know for sure the AF doesn't send anyone to the Navy Basic Freefall course anymore.

Jumpmaster is a little different- the AF has a SLJM course out at Combat Control School at Bragg (soon to be Liberty), and an MFF JM school out of the FTU down in Davis Monthan. And Precision JM is a whole different animal, so I won't get into that (it's AF specfic anyway).

If you're lucky, like me, you get to go through all the Army schools (even SLJM at Benning) until you get to MFFJM and finally get a good deal and not a terrible kick in the nuts.
 
Cookie_ said:
I thank my lucky stars that my unit doesn't send people to the Benning SLJM course unless that soldier wants to go. We consistently wait for a USASOC course and just jam 4 or 5 dudes into that.
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My story is the silliest. I was a rescue (now called ‘precision’) JM. Trained at the unit level, I could JM, drop AF dudes in AF aircraft on the ACC side. Get to ST- they tell me I have to go back through the formal courses. I had been an active JM for a solid 10 years. The slide (of course our roster for next up for school is a PowerPoint) said “Senior PJ”.

Me- “Uh, I’m a flight chief dude. 1, I won’t be the JM on a mission, one of my younger dudes wil so I can actually lead it. 2, I know is says ‘senior PJ’, but it means ‘senior guy ready to go with jumps needed’, not ‘the oldest PJ you have.’

Guy- *shrugs and points at slide* “I mean…”

Me- “…”
Guy- “…”
Me- “…tight.”

Get my orders and they’re to Benning for SLJM. Asked if it was a mistake (we usually go to CCS)… nope. Showed up to Benning smartly a month later.

It was exactly as fun as you’d think.
 
amlove21 said:
My story is the silliest. I was a rescue (now called ‘precision’) JM. Trained at the unit level, I could JM, drop AF dudes in AF aircraft on the ACC side. Get to ST- they tell me I have to go back through the formal courses. I had been an active JM for a solid 10 years. The slide (of course our roster for next up for school is a PowerPoint) said “Senior PJ”.

Me- “Uh, I’m a flight chief dude. 1, I won’t be the JM on a mission, one of my younger dudes wil so I can actually lead it. 2, I know is says ‘senior PJ’, but it means ‘senior guy ready to go with jumps needed’, not ‘the oldest PJ you have.’

Guy- *shrugs and points at slide* “I mean…”

Me- “…”
Guy- “…”
Me- “…tight.”

Get my orders and they’re to Benning for SLJM. Asked if it was a mistake (we usually go to CCS)… nope. Showed up to Benning smartly a month later.

It was exactly as fun as you’d think.
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That's what I love and miss: good ol' military efficiency, and how it always does the right thing....
 
Cookie_ said:
I thank my lucky stars that my unit doesn't send people to the Benning SLJM course unless that soldier wants to go. We consistently wait for a USASOC course and just jam 4 or 5 dudes into that.
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I never wanted to go to JM.

I may be in the minority here, but jumping was my least favorite military activity. I had maybe one really great jump out of like 35. I tried to get out of it whenever possible.
 
TLDR20 said:
I never wanted to go to JM.

I may be in the minority here, but jumping was my least favorite military activity. I had maybe one really great jump out of like 35. I tried to get out of it whenever possible.
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I have never jumped off my own free will. I have done tandem so any decision making was out of my hands. I can't say as I enjoyed it. My buddy, former Marine S/S now 18D on ODA 31XX, HATES jumping. Loathes it. He's the same way; he tries to get out of it when he can.
 
Jump school was limited for us, especially in support roles as radio operators. It was on my wish list but I ended up going the dispatch route and military motorcycle school. Frankly, I enjoyed flying off sand dunes and rolling a few hundred feet with the bike following. Or smashing handlebars manoeuvring tight bush. I wrote off 3 bikes in 2 weeks and rode 2 weeks with a broken ulnar styloid process, taped up. Best damn course they got rid of.
 
TLDR20 said:
I never wanted to go to JM.

I may be in the minority here, but jumping was my least favorite military activity. I had maybe one really great jump out of like 35. I tried to get out of it whenever possible.
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Bro, I am with you.

The only thing I like less than jumping (freefall included) is being a JM. I get why people like it, it's just not my thing. Put in the added stress of JMPI'ing 40 dudes 4 times in a day and if your calculations are off, or you miss something that will kill a guy- and we send our dudes to JM at E5- that takes all the fun out of a 30 second (tops) freefall.

I don't know how many times I have literally seen green light, pointed go, then followed the team out and thought "Oh shit... who checked me? Am I good?!"

The military truly can take all the fun out of everthing.
 
TLDR20 said:
I never wanted to go to JM.

I may be in the minority here, but jumping was my least favorite military activity. I had maybe one really great jump out of like 35. I tried to get out of it whenever possible.
Click to expand...

I love being airborne, for the very specific period of time from the roughly 3 seconds after the chute opens and I know I don't need to pull a reserve, until the 2 seconds before landing when I make sure my knees are bent.

Other than that, I hate it. I'd rather fast rope out of an osprey than do a static line jump. Something about that feels more "in my control" than jumping.


Back to the topic of recruiting, I'm really worried about the gap the military might start to see when it comes to the more technical fields such as cyber and IT.

We can't pay those guys/gals anything close to what the outside does, and (to stereotype a bit) that's not exactly a career field people known to be the "traditional ideal of soldier" fitness/temperament seems to go.

I'm not sure of what the fix is.
 
Cookie_ said:
I love being airborne, for the very specific period of time from the roughly 3 seconds after the chute opens and I know I don't need to pull a reserve, until the 2 seconds before landing when I make sure my knees are bent.

Other than that, I hate it. I'd rather fast rope out of an osprey than do a static line jump. Something about that feels more "in my control" than jumping.


Back to the topic of recruiting, I'm really worried about the gap the military might start to see when it comes to the more technical fields such as cyber and IT.

We can't pay those guys/gals anything close to what the outside does, and (to stereotype a bit) that's not exactly a career field people known to be the "traditional ideal of soldier" fitness/temperament seems to go.

I'm not sure of what the fix is.
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It's reached a critical level up here. I know so many senior troops in all comms roles that left in the past 5 year's. They started to promote up to fill senior NCO roles but they just weren't ready. Now they are just leaving spots empty. Attrition is higher than recruiting numbers. It was bad when I joined in the 90's but talking to friends, it's worse now.
 
Cookie_ said:
I love being airborne, for the very specific period of time from the roughly 3 seconds after the chute opens and I know I don't need to pull a reserve, until the 2 seconds before landing when I make sure my knees are bent.

Other than that, I hate it. I'd rather fast rope out of an osprey than do a static line jump. Something about that feels more "in my control" than jumping.


Back to the topic of recruiting, I'm really worried about the gap the military might start to see when it comes to the more technical fields such as cyber and IT.

We can't pay those guys/gals anything close to what the outside does, and (to stereotype a bit) that's not exactly a career field people known to be the "traditional ideal of soldier" fitness/temperament seems to go.

I'm not sure of what the fix is.
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RE: fast roping, I dig it. Scared when I did it, but I dig it.

RE: the bottom section, this has always been an issue, but with the growth of many of the more technical fields and needs, this is a growing problem. I don't know what the fix is, either, but you know what? Neither does the DoD. You and I are in good company.
 
JM allowed me to get enough jumps for Master Wings.
JM School gave me info to understand how the chutes work, and what the JM was looking for.
JMPI, not fun
Leading a stick off the ramp, fun.
Tossing guys from a chopper, fun.
30 guys out a door, not fun, though hanging out the door was fun.

Germany makes certain technical fields ART like, you are Civil Service until mobilized for a deployment then you have Military rank. Something like this would allow higher pay until needed for a deployed when your Reserve rank would kick in.
Not perfect, but no solution ever is.
 
Last edited:
DA SWO said:
JM allowed me to get enough jumps for Master Wings.
JM School gave me info to understand how the chutes work, and what the JM was looking for.
JMPI, not fun
Leading a stick off the ramp, fun.
Tossing guys from a chopper, fun.
30 guys out a door, not fun, though hanging out the door was fun.

Germany makes certain technical fields ART like, you are Civil Service until mobilized for a deployment then you have Military rank. Something like this would allow higher pay until needed for a deployed when your Reserve rank would kick in.
Not perfect, but no solution ever is.
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Why give them rank at all? Let them serve as .civ in both peacetime and downrange.
 

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