Retention and Recruitment Crisis

Hey, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. You easily beat my experience in this conversation with gen Z by a few thousand.

If the vast majority of kids attending recruiting events are against the "woke" stuff, then the DOD needs to reevaluate what they want these organizations to be. Either "woke" or fully manned it seems.
It's a DM we have gotten hundreds of times at this point (over 3+ years)- "I am not at all ok with CRT, identity politics, the mandates, pronouns, woke ideology, equity vs equality etc etc- but I want to get in and serve my country. Please tell me it's not as bad as it looks from the outside."

In all seriousness, I cannot think of a single message that we have gotten that has said, "I don't like what I perceive to be the conservative lean of the military- what are you all doing to fix that and be a little more inclusive?" And it would stand to reason that we would get a ton of these, right?

I think there is a very large "silent majority" that doesn't like the "woke" move, but the higher ups are VERY interested in it, so the lower ranks do what we do- know the difference between policy on TV and the actual impact on the ground. Just my opinion.
 
I see where this got confusing. My point about demographics was in reply to @Marauder06 original comment that the majority demographic in the Army (though also probably military overall) is conservative white men.
I haven't seen super recent numbers, but I don't think he's wrong in that assertion.

Not a majority, the largest group. There is an important difference.
 
Truthfully, it's been a death by a thousand cuts. That anyone would be shocked is itself shocking.

Rubbing elbows with colleagues at Ft. Bragg, I know a handful getting out "mid-career", all of whom going to PA school and having a civilian career. I asked how much influence the current climate had on their decisions, and to a man, "100%".

I've been out a minute and although we had our issues, I don't think they were nearly as profound on the climate force-wide as the current issues.

Edited to add, the other elephants in the room are the groups who can't join because they don't meet physical standards or academic standards.
 
Last edited:
I see where this got confusing. My point about demographics was in reply to @Marauder06 original comment that the majority demographic in the Army (though also probably military overall) is conservative white men.
I haven't seen super recent numbers, but I don't think he's wrong in that assertion.

My comment you bolded was that I don't think we (the military) can continue to expect to fulfill manning numbers and still maintain a "non-woke" military attractive to large swathes of that group.

I think the military either has to adapt to the population ("go woke") to encourage more of the general population to find it attractive, or we're going to have to maintain current military culture and might have reduced numbers to reflect that.

I want people in the military willing to do the job and embrace the suck. Whatever demographics they fall under are cool with me.
The below was linked from here... Department of Defense Releases Annual Demographics Report — Modest Increase of Women in th
 

Attachments

  • Opera Snapshot_2022-11-30_205326_download.militaryonesource.mil.png
    Opera Snapshot_2022-11-30_205326_download.militaryonesource.mil.png
    241.3 KB · Views: 22
Last edited:
This whole comment is a lot. To your bolded- current demographics show an outsized percentage (compared to America writ large) for minorities. Women underperform by a ton, but that's really the only demographic that isn't' a direct representation of the actual makeup of America.

Is your point here that we need to increase the amount of minorities, or decrease the amount of "white men"? If so, why? If not, feel free to ignore that one.

I guess I would ask- can you explain what you mean by "wider diversity of recruits"? Do more minorities = greater warfighting capabilities? And before you hit me with, "Diversity of ideas and experiences helps us be better warfighters", please understand that's not what you said. You said we could maintain recruiting numbers by going woke and getting a wider diversity of recruits- I don't know what that means.


There is very limited diversity in the military, unless you of course want skin color to be your only metric. To a man, my second recon platoon grew up dirt poor. Including myself.

I guess the first platoon I had at Knox was a fucking shit show. A bunch of dudes getting out and on daily BH trips...there were so many at Knox in 3-1 IBCT we had several busses to take the entire cohort to to Lincoln Trail, should have had everyone is a spun off detachment. No kidding like 300 Soldiers with crazy profiles. A lot of them were also fuck ups to. I had a guy go home to get his car and his first night back on post a DUI. He was Korean. I had another Soldier beat the tar out of her husband. She was a 5-2 Black Woman and he was a 6-4 Linebacker looking dude from one of the infantry battalions. I also had a member of MENSA in that platoon who wanted 3 days off per week to get his masters.

So when people ask about diversity I ask about two things: diversity of thought and diversity of experience.

There are way too many WOKES leading the DOD, this includes uniformed personnel at the HQ levels. The Service by nature is a conservative institution, the FBI used to be, the Agency used to be...State more moderate. That should be an ok thing! I don't know why @Cookie_ doesn't think this is a problem.

The GI Bill, much like NCAA Football is the largest transformer of the American class system. But hey, being a conservative white male from Alabama is apparently a wretched thing and we shouldn't allow anymore in the Army. I'm just a poor guerito from Los Angeles who is third generation Army in my family.
 
There are way too many WOKES leading the DOD, this includes uniformed personnel at the HQ levels. The Service by nature is a conservative institution, the FBI used to be, the Agency used to be...State more moderate. That should be an ok thing! I don't know why @Cookie_ doesn't think this is a problem.

People aren't usually happy when organizations are "by nature" slanted in a way counter to their politics. See all of our threads griping about "leftist" tech companies or academia.

That's not to imply that I think my political opinions should run the military. I'm fully aware that my career path(both mil and fed-civ) is predominantly more conservative than I am.

I want to see policies that make these organizations more effective, politics be damned.

Where I'm not "seeing the problem" is because I don't see a number of the "woke boogeyman" things as being that detrimental.
I've been in for long enough to have been through 3 or 4 "softenings" of the military.
It feels like every 2 or 3 years there's a new policy that's going to totally ruin the military and it hasn't yet.

For example; when we're saying "woke policies", which of these are we talking about? Uniform standard changes, the ACFT changes, trans service members, renaming bases, covid policies, and/or recruiting messages of a soldier with two moms?

Because all of those things have been accused of being "woke".

It's become the conservative version of liberals calling everything "nazi"; it's basically become shorthand for "anything I don't like".

So this doesn't get lost; I do think there are some issues, either in implementation or policy, with some of the items I listed. There are legit concerns to be addressed, even if I'm probably going to have a different view of it then 95% of this board.
 
Not posting for anyone in particular, just the semi-coherent pre-coffee musings of a lunatic.

- "Woke" changes get under our (royal we) skin in part due to the overhead required for these changes. Sometimes it isn't the change, it is the cost in man hours (People hours? Person hours? Billable hours? Fuck...) spent NOT doing our jobs so we can train to/ learn a new standard. The financial cost of lost hours worked and designing a new CBT or PPT to spread the message. Not to be cool old guy meme lord edgy, but Pepperidge Farm remembers when you wrote a policy, sent that to leadership, and the boss passed it out in formation or during a meeting... and that was it. Onboarding with my new job, I spent 3 DAYS taking CBT's to check someone's blocks...and that's 3 days of skipping through the videos so I can test out and download my shiny new PDF. AND I GET TO DO IT AGAIN IN A YEAR. How many of us are in this boat?

- Policy changes aren't just about THAT policy, they have ripples. Take someone who sits through 3, 4, 5 iterations of these "military ending" cycles. People will generally respond with anger and disgust at a constantly changing landscape or they are emboldened to make even more changes. Now consider this when the "script is flipped" and a new political power comes to office or some other large scale change at the top of the food chain. The pendulum swings in the other direction...and we're all caught in the middle. Take a piece of metal and bend it. No problem. Bend it again on the same axis. So what? Keep bending it back and forth and that metal will become brittle and snap. That's what we're doing to our people.

- All of this shit adds up and pretty soon we spend less time thinking about our jobs and more time thinking about the bullshit overhead involved in those jobs. So, are people really upset with the actual changes or do they just want to be treated like adults and do their jobs? I'm sure someone is already writing/ coding that CBT. Yay for another .5 hours in annual training!
 
As an aside, I typed the above, made coffee, and logged in at work to find I have to take active shooting training, with drill!, in the next month.

I literally just did this 2 weeks ago, but I have to again because...bureaucracy.

Sometimes it isn't the destination, but the journey, we hate.
 
Where I'm not "seeing the problem" is because I don't see a number of the "woke boogeyman" things as being that detrimental.
I've been in for long enough to have been through 3 or 4 "softenings" of the military.
It feels like every 2 or 3 years there's a new policy that's going to totally ruin the military and it hasn't yet.

For example; when we're saying "woke policies", which of these are we talking about? Uniform standard changes, the ACFT changes, trans service members, renaming bases, covid policies, and/or recruiting messages of a soldier with two moms?

Because all of those things have been accused of being "woke".
Which of the ones you named do you think have been a net good for the military, and why?
 
As mentioned previously, CRT in the service. The obese CJCS saying he wanted to read White Rage, nevermind that the author is a racist. Want to know about why poor whites identified with Trump? Well I mentioned it on another thread. Hillbilly Elegy, to start an understanding of the white rural working class that has been left behind would be far better. Anti White books, which is everything CRT texts are, is problematic for leaders to push that down the chain and in hearings. And then everyone on has to go through nonsensical trainings to tell white dudes they're racist...and also telling others that whites are racist.

Things were so much better in the late 90s and early 2000s.
 
I was also part of the generation of the transition to the proliferation of mandatory trainings; bullshit added to the already bureaucratically cumbersome mandatory trainings already on our annual schedule. But the new ones were all culture or behavior related and had nothing to do with being a good sailor or a good Marine.

You could see the handwriting on the wall when we were called out of a 3-day field event to do a mandatory training on human trafficking. One of the senior NCOs said it was only going to get worse and things like this would never go away.

On the reserve side it got so crazy that we were told to do a lot of these trainings on our own dime and our own time so deserve weekend could be used for actual reserve work.
 
Which of the ones you named do you think have been a net good for the military, and why?
The AR 670-1 changes were a grab bag of "this makes sense" (female hair, breastfeeding regs, religious) to IDGAF (nail polish/make-up).

I think The Calling was a decent recruiting ad campaign highlighting a bunch of different reasons people join/potential career paths. There were a few more than 2 mommy Emma, but that one got all the media attention.

Renaming bases is another "eh" for me. It's something I've thought was weird since I was a high school freshman outside Ft. Lee, but it's not something I really think leadership should have priorities.

Getting into "mixed feelings territory", I'm not anti-trans service members. I do feel like the policies need revised, specifically the barracks quarter policy. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is under current policy the roommate of a trans soldier can't easily request to room with another soldier of the same gender. I understand the higher level thought process is "EO", but I'm not comfortable with the unit impact of forcing a soldier to live with someone they cannot feel comfortable with.

The ACFT is a good test that has been watered down substantially. It's almost impossible to not hit the minimums; I've had a grand total of 1 (male) soldier actually fail it.
I think the original idea of tying requirement to MOS was valid, though I'd have like to seen that be attached to unit of assignment, I.E. a 42A assigned to SOF would need 70 minimums to stay in that unit.

Net negative has been COVID policy.
I'm not gonna sit here and not say I wasn't of the "the military says get vaxxed so I will because it's an order" side because I was. I'm also fine being a medical test dummy, but that shouldn't apply to others.

COVID waivers should have been a lot more forthcoming than they were. Additionally, as so much more data has come out about the health consequences like @amlove21 recently shared, the army should pause/rescind all soldiers currently being outprocessed.
It doesn't make sense to me to still kick someone out when come to find out they're concerns are being validated.



I'll add mandatory training to this list since it's been mentioned a view times. EO, SHARP, etc are all decent trainings to give, but holy fuck it shouldn't need to be every three months. Hell, it shouldn't even need to be yearly (hi, cyber awareness challenge!) unless a drastic change to policy occurs.

Tie it to rank/leadership courses. Teach it in basic/in-processing unit, and then just have a refresher or more in depth dive at BLC-SMC (or officer equivalent).
Somebody should only need to be taught EO/SHARP once.


I'm sure I've missed some, but those are the ones off the top of my head.
 
None of those things made the Army more lethal, or more effective. In fact, they did the opposite. In the interest of brevity, I'm only going to address a couple of them here:

The problem with the 670-1 changes is that they were not applied equally, they were applied favorably. I.e., one group of people (women, in the examples you gave) was favored over others. I'm fine with every one of the changes you mentioned, if there were applied to everyone. If a man wants a ponytail, he should be able to have one if women can. Same with nail polish, ear rings, skirts, anything else. I don't think anyone should have makeup, polish, or bling in the work uniform, but if the Army decides it's OK, it should be OK for everyone.

The drumbeat for the past decade was "hey we just want to be treated equally." But that's not what anyone means. People are hard wired to gain as much comfort and power as they can. No one wants to give up their special privileges. They want what's best for themselves. If women really wanted equality, wouldn't they refuse to take privileges not afforded to men? Of course they wouldn't. Just like men wouldn't refuse to go to Ranger School, or into the Infantry Branch, when those options were denied to women. It's never about equality, it's always about "what's best for me." This is a human trait, not something that I'm ascribing to any one group.

Allowing anyone special privileges and denying them to others makes the "others" resentful. This directly relates to the ACFT debacle. One of the biggest selling points about the ACFT, which most people in the Army did not want for many reasons that we discussed at length here on the site, because it was going to be an "equal" test. No special privileges for gender, no special grading for age. No more "pretty fit for a female" or "OK fitness for an old dude."

The Army views women as functionally interchangeable with men, which is why they're allowed into any training, any MOS, and any specialty. But they were allowed to retain their special privileges, ones, to their credit, that the service women themselves weren't demanding. For example, the ACFT is now gender and age normed. Simply put, if you're female, you have a built-in advantage. Because test scores have a number associated with them, they are disproportionately valued for things like promotion, school selection, and job competition. You can see this especially pronounced at things like the service academies. At West Point's Indoor Obstacle Course Test, for example, a time of 3:13 is an A for a woman and a D for a man. An A+ for a female cadet is a C- for her male counterpart.

1669923415301.png
This score contributes to a cadet's physical (athletic) grade, and can make the difference in things like class rank, which affects branch, post, and job within the Corps of Cadets. Same achievement, same score, but different outcome. How is this "equal?"

The worst part of it is, the women don't need it. I once watched a female cadet knock out 100 straight, perfect-form pushups. I've ever in my life been able to do that many straight. She was atypical (male or female) for that kind of upper-body strength, but there is no reason why we can't find a common floor and ceiling for everyone. One standard. No quotas, not special carve-outs. For anything. That would go way farther towards "equality" than anything else we've talked about.

But "equality" wasn't the real end goal, was it? It never really is...
 
Last edited:
Woman with a 3:32: I made an A!
Male with a 3:32: Guess I'm going Signal.
---

Seriously, for those unaware, in competitive branch assignments like Aviation a female cadet will have a distinct advantage over a male. The military puts a RIDICULOUS amount of emphasis on PT scores, so the score chart above is a lot more important than some realize.
 
But "equality" wasn't the real end goal, was it? It never really is...
And THIS is where the rubber meets the road. The changes we are talking about- those issues that lead to our problems in recruiting and retention- is because the "woke ideology" that has infiltrated and corrupted the military is in *no way* about "equality". It's about "equity".

We are dealing with serious issues in SOF because the command's view isn't "equality of opportunity", meaning- everyone gets a shot. Their view is, "Equity of outcome."

Despite what you may have heard, the military has drifted from "You get what you earn" to "You get what we think you're owed due to outlandish social pressures and based entirely on DEI initiatives in order to achieve equitable distribution of all things."

Can't make the standards as a female? We will change the standards. Can't wear the uniform correctly because you can't "speak your truth" while wearing it? Tight, we will just change the uniform wear. Can't get through a day of work without compelling others to call you what you want to be called in your head (under threat of punishment)? No prob! We will make a reg about pronouns in your bio.

And, again- there is only one non-protected class. Because now, in the military, we have realized that that class experienced privilige for too long, and now we must punish that class in the name of "equity."
 
Woman with a 3:32: I made an A!
Male with a 3:32: Guess I'm going Signal.
---

Seriously, for those unaware, in competitive branch assignments like Aviation a female cadet will have a distinct advantage over a male. The military puts a RIDICULOUS amount of emphasis on PT scores, so the score chart above is a lot more important than some realize.
This is especially humorous to me because I know you were a Signal officer. ;)

Self Burn GIF
 
None of those things made the Army more lethal, or more effective. In fact, they did the opposite. In the interest of brevity, I'm only going to address a couple of them here:

The problem with the 670-1 changes is that they were not applied equally, they were applied favorably. I.e., one group of people (women, in the examples you gave) was favored over others. I'm fine with every one of the changes you mentioned, if there were applied to everyone. If a man wants a ponytail, he should be able to have one if women can. Same with nail polish, ear rings, skirts, anything else. I don't think anyone should have makeup, polish, or bling in the work uniform, but if the Army decides it's OK, it should be OK for everyone.

The drumbeat for the past decade was "hey we just want to be treated equally." But that's not what anyone means. People are hard wired to gain as much comfort and power as they can. No one wants to give up their special privileges. They want what's best for themselves. If women really wanted equality, wouldn't they refuse to take privileges not afforded to men? Of course they wouldn't. Just like men wouldn't refuse to go to Ranger School, or into the Infantry Branch, when those options were denied to women. It's never about equality, it's always about "what's best for me." This is a human trait, not something that I'm ascribing to any one group.

Allowing anyone special privileges and denying them to others makes the "others" resentful. This directly relates to the ACFT debacle. One of the biggest selling points about the ACFT, which most people in the Army did not want for many reasons that we discussed at length here on the site, because it was going to be an "equal" test. No special privileges for gender, no special grading for age. No more "pretty fit for a female" or "OK fitness for an old dude."

The Army views women as functionally interchangeable with men, which is why they're allowed into any training, any MOS, and any specialty. But they were allowed to retain their special privileges, ones, to their credit, that the service women themselves weren't demanding. For example, the ACFT is now gender and age normed. Simply put, if you're female, you have a built-in advantage. Because test scores have a number associated with them, they are disproportionately valued for things like promotion, school selection, and job competition. You can see this especially pronounced at things like the service academies. At West Point's Indoor Obstacle Course Test, for example, an A for a woman is a D for a man.

View attachment 41031
This score contributes to a cadet's athletic grade, and can make the difference in things like class rank, which affects branch, post, and job within the Corps of Cadets. Same achievement, same score, but different outcome. How is this "equal?"

The worst part of it is, the women don't need it. I once watched a female cadet knock out 100 straight, perfect-form pushups. I've ever in my life been able to do that many straight. She was atypical (male or female) for that kind of upper-body strength, but there is no reason why we can't find a common floor and ceiling for everyone. One standard. No quotas, not special carve-outs. For anything. That would go way farther towards "equality" than anything else we've talked about.

But "equality" wasn't the real end goal, was it? It never really is...

Many moons ago when Men lost the right to single-sex public school education in a military environment (VMI) women entered. It was great for VMI, why we fought so hard against it I don't know. But I do have to say there should be a place where Men or Women are allowed to keep their space. I saw some random ass comment in a newsletter that said the MLB needed to be open to women. Why must men give up their bastions? That's a bit of a tangent. But let's get to where I was going.

Women were admitted in the fall of 1997 to the exact same standard as men. Female rats had their heads buzzed to a rat cut just like the men did. Now they were allowed to grow it out to what can be described as a pixie cut but had to keep getting haircuts until following class recognition. When I was at VMI, the pixie hair cut remained. Shortly after I left it changed and today, female rats don't even sit in the barbers chair. The other standard changed while I was at VMI. VMI was known for giving award to liberals for whatever reason, one was to Hillary Clinton. They get a medal and 20k to come speak. (her speech actually was decent. Well we had a fitness test called the VFT. 1.5 Miles 12:00 Minimum, 60 Situps, 5 Pull Ups. Well my rat year Sandra Day O'Connor gets the award, and she has a speech. She tells the corps of cadets that they have to change and that women should be treated differently. Well...three weeks later during graduation/dead week the Physical Fitness Department and the Commandants staff announce changes to the VFT. Passing the VFT is now mandatory but it was gender normed. And all of a sudden a bunch of women who couldn't meet the standard that was low, were now somehow passing.

VMI still sucks as a Cadet btw.:ROFLMAO:
 
And to all those that may be thinking, "Well, this doesn't sound so bad! After all, we needed a little leveling of the playing field..."

No. Stop it. This business is warfighting, full stop. It's about killing the enemy. If your initiative doesn't address our overall lethality, it shouldn't be. I don't know how we have lost sight of that, but we have.
 
And to all those that may be thinking, "Well, this doesn't sound so bad! After all, we needed a little leveling of the playing field..."

No. Stop it. This business is warfighting, full stop. It's about killing the enemy. If your initiative doesn't address our overall lethality, it shouldn't be. I don't know how we have lost sight of that, but we have.

Are you Major Payne?

 
Back
Top