Retention and Recruitment Crisis

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racing_kitty said:
Sure! Because everyone knows that those barrel chested freedom fighters with 10% body fat need to lose some more weight! All that extra muscle can’t be good for their health!!! /sarc

Yes, I know there are some fatasses in support, but still.
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A good portion of our community would fail a tape test but make some Olympic athletes look pathetic
 
RackMaster said:
A good portion of our community would fail a tape test but make some Olympic athletes look pathetic
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I'm pretty sure we've talked about this on here before. You know who was putting out and who was a shit bag. We'd be generous for one group with the test, stingy with the other. Was it right? I don't know but I never wanted to see a good Marine or sailor have a broken career because they taped poorly, especially when they rocked the right side of the bell curve of the physical fitness tests.
 
I'm sticking with the opinion that recruiting and retention are down for one reason - desirable recuits and seperating servicemembers can see through the lies.

Ya' wanna relax the standards so fatties can play too?
...so be it.
JUST TELL MOTHER FUCKERS THAT THE STANDARDS ARE BEING RELAXED SO THAT EVEN FATTIES CAN BE COMMANDOS.
...squared away people will join because they will know where they stand

Ya' wanna hire folks suffering from dysphoria that want to mutilate their genitals?
DO IT.
PAY FOR THEIR SHIT.
JUST ADMIT TO EVERYONE - THE SUPER PACS THAT FUND PERMANENT DC HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA MONEY
...just don't try selling some bullshit about folks wanting to serve because diversity is our strength
...good people will still join because they will know where they stand

Ya' want a force full of folks that can run fast and lift heavy thing that aren't just degenerates looking for an excuse to bully people?
...be honest with them and stop pretending that throwing a 16 pound shot put 77 feet and throwing an 8 pound shot put 74 feet somehow deserves the word "equal" in the social context.

You can't pretend that a low stress, low impact job-on-the-fob that consists of eating Snickers Ice Cream Bars, loosing leave forms, misrouting mail, and going to salsa night only requires a pear shaped physique and gender-norming PT test when a grunt of the exact same age and pay grade is forced to sleep in the rain and shit in an MRE bag while being told he is a turd - even though HE finished the two-mile run 2 minutes and 46 seconds faster than SHE did.

NOW...
Lets make those troops that are the same age and pay grade the same MOS as well - and STILL give one of them the same softer easier slower PT test that weighs on their promotion potential.
Then explain to a young, intelligent demongraphic that you want them to join your "meritocracy" - BECAUSE DIVERSITY IS YOUR STRENGTH.

Then ask yourself - why are recruiting and retention rates in the shitter?
 
My view of current R/R is very specific and very narrow as I have been out a minute, and my only glimpse behind the curtain is what's going on at the school house at FT Bragg. The numbers of students in the SFMS class are about half compared to just a couple years ago and about a fifth of GWOT era. Overall the numbers of guys going through A&S and the Q (Navy SOIDC-specific in a minute) are way lower.

I asked a few people about this. Is it the current climate? The lack of a war? What? The answers I get back are pretty complicated in that it's a healthy combination of everything. On the face, it's just harder to recruit SOF when there's no war. Also, yes, the current political climate has encouraged SOF veterans to leave mid-tenure, which means fewer instructors, which means smaller classes, and has a significant trickle-down affect.

Partially due to this, a candidate is told the pipeline is 'about 'N' months long'; however, because of reasons, there are incredible gaps between phases and classes, so motivated students are going to dive school or other schools, but others are duty drivers, spending hours in the gym, or otherwise twiddling thumbs. Some SWCC instructors have told me some students--good students, good guys--have just said 'screw it' and quit, and went to other units.

I talked with the navy folks. The SOIDC candidates are a much, much smaller number than their 18D counterparts and their pipeline is generally a bit tighter, so they have not had that particular issue. Their issue is that their pipeline has changed a bit: by the time they get to the medical portion they have been to the merit badge courses (airborne and dive), but if they fail 18D, they go to 'needs of the Navy.' So knowing this, they said they aren't getting the same percentage of applicants as before the change. They are trying to reverse it so medical is front-end.
 
Devildoc said:
My view of current R/R is very specific and very narrow as I have been out a minute, and my only glimpse behind the curtain is what's going on at the school house at FT Bragg. The numbers of students in the SFMS class are about half compared to just a couple years ago and about a fifth of GWOT era. Overall the numbers of guys going through A&S and the Q (Navy SOIDC-specific in a minute) are way lower.

I asked a few people about this. Is it the current climate? The lack of a war? What? The answers I get back are pretty complicated in that it's a healthy combination of everything. On the face, it's just harder to recruit SOF when there's no war. Also, yes, the current political climate has encouraged SOF veterans to leave mid-tenure, which means fewer instructors, which means smaller classes, and has a significant trickle-down affect.

Partially due to this, a candidate is told the pipeline is 'about 'N' months long'; however, because of reasons, there are incredible gaps between phases and classes, so motivated students are going to dive school or other schools, but others are duty drivers, spending hours in the gym, or otherwise twiddling thumbs. Some SWCC instructors have told me some students--good students, good guys--have just said 'screw it' and quit, and went to other units.

I talked with the navy folks. The SOIDC candidates are a much, much smaller number than their 18D counterparts and their pipeline is generally a bit tighter, so they have not had that particular issue. Their issue is that their pipeline has changed a bit: by the time they get to the medical portion they have been to the merit badge courses (airborne and dive), but if they fail 18D, they go to 'needs of the Navy.' So knowing this, they said they aren't getting the same percentage of applicants as before the change. They are trying to reverse it so medical is front-end.
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The gaps and stuff is nothing new. I went through during peak war, I waited 4 months post SFAS to start the Q course, and waited weeks between phases. It was optimized for a little while but that seems to have passed. My Q course experience was well over two years not including a ….cough…. Couple of recycles…

Also interesting, as the navy guys when I was a stud and later an instructor had always gone through their entire pipeline before SOCM. I also never knew many SARCs who failed SOCM.

If guys cannot wait a few weeks or a month, and keep at it, they don’t deserve to be SF. The Q is a behemoth, and waiting has always been part of it.
 
TLDR20 said:
The gaps and stuff is nothing new. I went through during peak war, I waited 4 months post SFAS to start the Q course, and waited weeks between phases. It was optimized for a little while but that seems to have passed. My Q course experience was well over two years not including a ….cough…. Couple of recycles…

Also interesting, as the navy guys when I was a stud had always gone through their entire pipeline before SOCM. I also never knew many SARCs who failed SOCM.

If guys cannot wait a few weeks or a month, and keep at it, they don’t deserve to be SF. The Q is a behemoth, and waiting has always been part of it.
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It seems they are changing courses within the Q frequently, so I asked if that was an issue. The answers are all over the map to a point that there's no good way to see if there is a relationship.

As I have been told, as is your experience, there have always been gaps, but it 'feels' like the gaps are more pronounced now, and there's a general malaise, and it filters down to the students. I know most guys don't like instructional duty (I had to do my time teaching, too), so I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

The students I am meeting are almost exclusively SOCM/SFMS and they have all been pretty motivated. I do not know if that is intrinsic in that MOS or not.

One guy who came through here for SFMS is finishing pre-dive and going to dive next week. When he was starting pre-dive he was bummed that the Q was gummed up. I told him, "dude, they are paying you to hang out at a pool, swim, get in shape, and go to Key West and dive. You know how many people would kill for that? To be paid and given the time to do that?" It seemed to shift his perspective.

Regarding the Navy side, it sounds as if the threat of 'needs of the Navy' has a souring affect. It makes total sense to have SOCM/SFMS (all are SOIDC now, no more SARC) at the end, to have that block of material the freshest. You don't forget how to swim, but you do do atrophy when you don't start IVs or 'do medicine.' The Navy screwing with a pipeline is not new, though. They did it to one of mine, and they either won't explain why they do it, or give you 10 reasons. I had always assumed it was 'just' a Navy thing, but good to know all branches suffer this.
 
Devildoc said:
It seems they are changing courses within the Q frequently, so I asked if that was an issue. The answers are all over the map to a point that there's no good way to see if there is a relationship.

As I have been told, as is your experience, there have always been gaps, but it 'feels' like the gaps are more pronounced now, and there's a general malaise, and it filters down to the students. I know most guys don't like instructional duty (I had to do my time teaching, too), so I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

The students I am meeting are almost exclusively SOCM/SFMS and they have all been pretty motivated. I do not know if that is intrinsic in that MOS or not.

One guy who came through here for SFMS is finishing pre-dive and going to dive next week. When he was starting pre-dive he was bummed that the Q was gummed up. I told him, "dude, they are paying you to hang out at a pool, swim, get in shape, and go to Key West and dive. You know how many people would kill for that? To be paid and given the time to do that?" It seemed to shift his perspective.

Regarding the Navy side, it sounds as if the threat of 'needs of the Navy' has a souring affect. It makes total sense to have SOCM/SFMS (all are SOIDC now, no more SARC) at the end, to have that block of material the freshest. You don't forget how to swim, but you do do atrophy when you don't start IVs or 'do medicine.' The Navy screwing with a pipeline is not new, though. They did it to one of mine, and they either won't explain why they do it, or give you 10 reasons. I had always assumed it was 'just' a Navy thing, but good to know all branches suffer this.
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Honestly most of these students in SOCM have barely earned their place in the Q course, with SOCM being before SUT, I almost have zero respect for their opinions. They go to SFAS then SOCM. They haven’t even done the hard shit and they are whining.

They also shouldn’t be running their mouth to you.
 
Question, are these guys that are in the pipeline on a normal 4yr contract? If so, wouldn't it be in the best interests of the DoD to get these guys through as quickly as possible (without lowering standards, obviously)? I mean, done in 14mo vs 24mo is that much longer that they can be productive on a team during their obligation. They are not getting any benefit, and neither is the DoD nor the taxpayer, from them being paid to workout and do menial tasks for months.
 
Kaldak said:
Question, are these guys that are in the pipeline on a normal 4yr contract? If so, wouldn't it be in the best interests of the DoD to get these guys through as quickly as possible (without lowering standards, obviously)? I mean, done in 14mo vs 24mo is that much longer that they can be productive on a team during their obligation. They are not getting any benefit, and neither is the DoD nor the taxpayer, from them being paid to workout and do menial tasks for months.
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18X is a 5 year contract, and you must have 2 years remaining TIS to graduate the Q course.
 
TLDR20 said:
Honestly most of these students in SOCM have barely earned their place in the Q course, with SOCM being before SUT, I almost have zero respect for their opinions. They go to SFAS then SOCM. They haven’t even done the hard shit and they are whining.

They also shouldn’t be running their mouth to you.
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I just want to clarify this.

They shouldn’t be running their mouth or airing their grievances to an outsider. While you are veteran, you aren’t from the community, and thus they shouldn’t be talking internal issues to you. Nothing against you. Obviously I respect what you are doing, and you personally.

To clarify the first point. The Q used to be full of gut checks before MOS. It still is for the other MOS’s. Having to go through SOPC2, SUT and SERE before MOS weeded out guys that it should have. My SUT class had crazy attrition. There was a noticeable difference in the guys that had been to SUT vs the guys that hadn’t when I was an instructor.
 
TLDR20 said:
I just want to clarify this.

They shouldn’t be running their mouth or airing their grievances to an outsider. While you are veteran, you aren’t from the community, and thus they shouldn’t be talking internal issues to you. Nothing against you. Obviously I respect what you are doing, and you personally.

To clarify the first point. The Q used to be full of gut checks before MOS. It still is for the other MOS’s. Having to go through SOPC2, SUT and SERE before MOS weeded out guys that it should have. My SUT class had crazy attrition. There was a noticeable difference in the guys that had been to SUT vs the guys that hadn’t when I was an instructor.
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Why can't people speak to their friends? Real question.
 
ThunderHorse said:
Why can't people speak to their friends? Real question.
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They can. But I expect a future SF soldier on TDY during training to not air any kind of dirty laundry to an outsider, especially one in an official capacity as a liaison, preceptor, or anything else that could have official ramifications.

Insulate and isolate. These guys are not doing that. You haven’t been on an ODA so you don’t understand. Basically they shouldn’t be saying anything they wouldn’t say around the commander of SWCS, or the 1SFC commander.
 
DA SWO said:
OPSEC, PERSEC.
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Not an issue at this level. There are some things for which I had to sign a NDA, and those things we only talk about behind closed doors.

TLDR20 said:
They can. But I expect a future SF soldier on TDY during training to not air any kind of dirty laundry to an outsider, especially one in an official capacity as a liaison, preceptor, or anything else that could have official ramifications.

Insulate and isolate. These guys are not doing that. You haven’t been on an ODA so you don’t understand. Basically they shouldn’t be saying anything they wouldn’t say around the commander of SWCS, or the 1SFC commander.
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I am in a weird position for sure because I have fingers in multiple pies: my role here at Duke re: SFMS SOCT, MPT, I have done some instruction with trauma III at SOCM and given 'guest lectures,' and having friends (not just Deltas) on ODAs. People vent and I have to discern what's just venting, and what needs to be leveled up. But soldiers/sailors/Marines/airmen bitching about their lot in life is a foundational piece of being in the military.

There is one thing I have spoken to SWCC leadership about: a lot of the bitching, it's from cadre and instructors, and in front of students. It's little wonder the students feel free to do it, free from ramifications, if the instructorship are so open with it, too.
 

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