Save the Ukraine

[Diamondback 2/2]

Fuck it, if we're going to have WW3 why not over Ukraine.

I honestly don't see the strategic benefit for even being tied into NATO with of all places Russia's next-door neighbor Ukraine. If Russia had the same agreements with say Mexico or Canada, we would have an issue with it....say like how we did in the 60's and Cuba?

I really can't believe we (the world) are so stupid we are going to start the cold war all over again.

 

[DA SWO]

No second thoughts here, I just think people should be aware of the potential consequences i.e. the USA suffered 416,000 + deaths in WWII.

Does anyone here think the US will go to Tawain's aid if China invades?

Some things are worth fighting and dying for. The Crimea? Not one of those things, to anyone (not even the Ukraine IMO), except Russia.

No on tawain.
No on the Ukraine (but at least admidt we fucked them in the ass).
Yes on Poland.
FWIW- The US invoked Art 5 after Sept 11, 2001. NATO AWACS assisted manning CAPs over the CONUS, and we were released from some other NATO Committments.
Turkey may have invoked Art 5 after their RF-4 was shot down (getting some money and a Patriot battery from us).

The point being, if Putin is trying to rebuild the USSR, eventually he runs out of 3rd rate opponents; what happens when he goes after the 2nd tier (former USSR allies), like Poland, or the Baltic States?

There is not much we can do, but kicking him out of the G-8 (though symbolic) would hurt him domestically.
The EU needs to cut back on LNG purchases (ironically, the Ukraine can cut the pipelines as a last ditch measure, punishing Russia and the EU).

 

[Red-Dot]

I guess Patton was on to something after WWII....sure would have made the current geopolitical conditions much different.

 

[Kraut783]

Hell, he said it during WWII....and was right

 

[ThunderHorse]

To say the POTUS is getting outclassed is being blind to the reality that our hand freakin' sucks unless we want to shoot bullets.

 

[Worldweaver]

To say the POTUS is getting outclassed is being blind to the reality that our hand freakin' sucks unless we want to shoot bullets.

He was outclassed to begin with, as soon as the Vladster looked him in the eye. The President has no business standing next to a man like Putin, and I'm not saying this to be disparaging to the POTUS, because Putin has been sizing up and manipulating people his entire life. Putin is a Cold War era KGB agent who knows what buttons he can and cannot push, and the extent to which he can manipulate certain people. The President has been measured on several occasions and, in my opinion, Putin has decided that he could move against this current administration without serious threat of consequence. The situation with Syria and the administrations handling of Afghanistan, amongst other things, have emboldened Russia, however, I don't necessarily think that Putin chooses to move on Crimea with a different Commander in Chief in office.

 

[Chopstick]

He was outclassed to begin with, as soon as the Vladster looked him in the eye. The President has no business standing next to a man like Putin, and I'm not saying this to be disparaging to the POTUS, because Putin has been sizing up and manipulating people his entire life. Putin is a Cold War era KGB agent who knows what buttons he can and cannot push, and the extent to which he can manipulate certain people. The President has been measured on several occasions and, in my opinion, Putin has decided that he could move against this current administration without serious threat of consequence. The situation with Syria and the administrations handling of Afghanistan, amongst other things, have emboldened Russia, however, I don't necessarily think that Putin chooses to move on Crimea with a different Commander in Chief in office.

So would you say that Putin has looked into Obama's soul?

 

[Worldweaver]

So would you say that Putin has looked into Obama's soul?

Yeah, we see how that worked out for President Bush. :-"

 

[pardus]

No on tawain.
No on the Ukraine (but at least admidt we fucked them in the ass).
Yes on Poland.
FWIW- The US invoked Art 5 after Sept 11, 2001. NATO AWACS assisted manning CAPs over the CONUS, and we were released from some other NATO Committments.
Turkey may have invoked Art 5 after their RF-4 was shot down (getting some money and a Patriot battery from us).

The point being, if Putin is trying to rebuild the USSR, eventually he runs out of 3rd rate opponents; what happens when he goes after the 2nd tier (former USSR allies), like Poland, or the Baltic States?

There is not much we can do, but kicking him out of the G-8 (though symbolic) would hurt him domestically.
The EU needs to cut back on LNG purchases (ironically, the Ukraine can cut the pipelines as a last ditch measure, punishing Russia and the EU).

Oh yes, agree 100% on the bold quote. It would be really bad if we let Poland get fucked, it would be a shit show if we tried to physically step in though. As a nation and a military we are exhausted at the moment. Putin is like a wolf who can sense we are on the ropes, he is circling us now...
Lets hope the Chinese don't think this is a good time to start forcing some major issues too. We'd be fucked.

 

[RackMaster]

Throw in the fact that the West couldn't amass a force needed, the fuck sticks we have to choose from would probably lean towards Lenin, er I mean Putin's ideals. Free ice cream for everyone! Just dig this hole first....

 

[RetPara]

This is fait acompli. No one aint't going to do nothing over the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

The Crimea was actually part of Georgia till Uncle Joe gave it to Ukraine in '46 (?). The Eastern part of Ukraine is primarily ethnic Russian; probably from forced resettlement's of peasant's from Uncle Joe's time.

Vladimir Vladimirovich is taking a lesson from history and running with it. By that I mean one of the King Charles of France by taking nibbles away from bordering countries and such. Other crowns raised a stink; but did nothing. His Most Excellent Georgia adventure was the precursor for this.

Also consider that the Russian naval base at Sevastopol is Russia's only warm water port... even if it is bottle-necked leading out of the Black Sea. That port has to be protected.

 

[Red-Dot]

You know I'll play devils advocate here.... I don't blame Putin one bit. He sees a VERY WEAK President in office, his cabinet (insert Kerry) and security advisors are a laughable group of keystone cops. He knows the American public in general won't stomach another "boots on the ground" war and he knows the American scare of communism is gone. It's a perfect storm scenario for him.

Would I like to go in and kick Putin's ass? Hell yes.... But the current POTUS can't and won't.

 

[Centermass]

"Or else, we will be very, very, angry with you"

"And we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are......."

 

[Chopstick]

Yeah, we see how that worked out for President Bush. :-"

About as good as flexibility after someone's "last election"? :-"

 

[DA SWO]

To say the POTUS is getting outclassed is being blind to the reality that our hand freakin' sucks unless we want to shoot bullets.

No.

Kill the G-8 summit in Russia this summer.
Give Putin the boot and let it go back to being the G-7 Summit for awhile.
Ukraine can pimp the EU by charging extra transfer fees on the Nat Gas Pipelines, that might get Germany's attention.

Putin's loses face, and that is VERY IMPORTENT to him.

 

[pardus]

The Crimea was actually part of Georgia till Uncle Joe gave it to Ukraine in '46 (?). The Eastern part of Ukraine is primarily ethnic Russian; probably from forced resettlement's of peasant's from Uncle Joe's time.

It was part of Russia until Khrushchev gifted it to Ukraine in '54.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

To say the POTUS is getting outclassed is being blind to the reality that our hand freakin' sucks unless we want to shoot bullets.

Obama has divided our country.

Putin has united his.

Obama has made us look weak and incapable to the world. Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Iran, Egypt, Syria, etc, etc.

Putin has been very strong on many of the issues, stepping over every line in the sand Obama has called out.

Right now you have China and Russia, conducting global power grabs, strengthening their military presence, their economic alliances and really starting to re-shape the world, in their favor. It may not look like in the immediate, but the next 10-20 years are going to be very different than the last 20 years.

Obama is a idealist who think he understands the worlds current heart beat. The reality is he doesn't even understand his own country. That was evident in his world apology tour.

He is very much outclassed, he was outclassed before he ever got into office and he will be outclassed by leaders like Putin until he leaves office. The sad part about it, is that its his own mouthpiece that is causing him to be outclassed. He doesn't understand that he needs a united country behind him to get things done or to tell people like Putin, we (as in my country who I speak for) will not put up with your shit anymore, cut it out before we decide to fuck you up a bit. Instead he runs his mouth to this nation by saying if your house of reps won't do what I think is best for you, I'll just do it anyway with a stroke of my pen or a text from my phone. You can't look strong to the world, if you don't even look strong in your own country.

Obama is a joke, and the only thing IMHO that is worse than him fucking setting us up for epic fail over the next few decades, is that our people some how elected this fool twice.

To finish my little rant off, I will add that this jerkoff is running his suck to the world, pissing people off, meanwhile he is gutting our Military and crushing people financially with things like Obamacare and hyperinflation. People need to wake up and smell the pile of shit this retard is leaving our children with.

 

[0699]

FWIW- The US invoked Art 5 after Sept 11, 2001. NATO AWACS assisted manning CAPs over the CONUS, and we were released from some other NATO Committments.

I would argue that there is a big difference between "Hey, can you loan us a few AWACS for airspace control in a place where we have airspace dominance and your people in the aircraft will be under no threat what so ever?" and "American boots on the ground defending a shitty government all because our own government can't figure out what the fuck they want to do".

 

[Red-Dot]

Yep....that "HOPE" campaign is really helping us out now.

 

[DA SWO]

I would argue that there is a big difference between "Hey, can you loan us a few AWACS for airspace control in a place where we have airspace dominance and your people in the aircraft will be under no threat what so ever?" and "American boots on the ground defending a shitty government all because our own government can't figure out what the fuck they want to do".

I am not saying put troops into the Ukraine, but bolstering Poland as part of a NATO agreement (to me) is a given, otherwise disband NATO as the Russians use our unwillingness to honor treaty committments against us.