Save the Ukraine

I'm no fan of Poland's military, but we have to honor our treaties or dissolve them.

Putin's no dummy. He'll push this to see how far he can go. The world will watch to see how we respond and how NATO responds. Even if the Russians straight up invaded with Putin taking a dump in downtown Kiev, no one will go to war for the Ukraine. We have options, but those are limited. What is sad is that I dont' see us exercising them or even acting like we'll exercise them and THAT'S where we are really losing. We aren't even trying.
 
If we want to survive the next century we will have to dissolve NATO and probably enter into some form of an alliance with China and Russia, probably India as well. More so we will have to watch the USD fall and jump into a new currency that will inevitably turn into a world currency.

Again, people need to wake up to shit sandwich we are about to take a bite out of, but more so the next two generations will be eating in full. We need to change our tune with both Russia and China and establish a three way pact that allows us the united states to remain a super power in the 21st century. Otherwise we all better get used to the idea of going to war to suppress China and Russia in power growth and maintain our failing alliances.

I know that sounds pretty shitty but that is the world we are currently living in.Who wants to bet the next spark of WW3 will be between China and Japan?
 
If we want to survive the next century we will have to dissolve NATO and probably enter into some form of an alliance with China and Russia, probably India as well. More so we will have to watch the USD fall and jump into a new currency that will inevitably turn into a world currency.

Again, people need to wake up to shit sandwich we are about to take a bite out of, but more so the next two generations will be eating in full. We need to change our tune with both Russia and China and establish a three way pact that allows us the united states to remain a super power in the 21st century. Otherwise we all better get used to the idea of going to war to suppress China and Russia in power growth and maintain our failing alliances.

I know that sounds pretty shitty but that is the world we are currently living in.Who wants to bet the next spark of WW3 will be between China and Japan?
So you are embrasing Communism?
 
No.

I'm stating that China and Russia are on the verge of exploding in the super power arena and we are cutting our military to pre-american super power levels. I'm stating that the USD is hyperinflated and is likely to devalue and collapse as the world currency by 2020. I'm stating that the whole world has been acting a fool, civil unrest, civil wars, border disputes and highly tense economic deals that are leading nations to build Armies while we are disassembling ours.

I'm just saying we should all wake up and take a hard look at the future and how our children will have to live in it. Do we send our.kids off to war to fight communist in order to slow their rate of growth/maintain our crazy failing system. Or do we stop acting like snobs and focus on ensuring a safe and prosperous future for our kids kids?

I don't really give two shits if China or Russia want to be communist. I don't care if the whole planet wants to be communist, as long as America gets to be America and my kids don't have to live through a fucking nuclear fall out.

Honestly China is really the only true Communist country right now (I put NK under China being the child leader is doing whatever he wants and is simply a puppet on a Chinese string). Russia is a democracy now, albeit a fucked up one. I don't think China will stay communist forever, the more their people become globalized, the more they will move to democracy.

But no I am not for communism here in the USA.
 
Putin's no dummy. He'll push this to see how far he can go. The world will watch to see how we respond and how NATO responds. Even if the Russians straight up invaded with Putin taking a dump in downtown Kiev, no one will go to war for the Ukraine. We have options, but those are limited. What is sad is that I dont' see us exercising them or even acting like we'll exercise them and THAT'S where we are really losing. We aren't even trying.
To add to that, Putin is still calling the shots here. I'm sure there will be an attempt to claim some sort of diplomacy win in the current pause today with Putin saying he sees no reason to invade Ukraine right now. However, even if there is some amount of truth to it, Putin is clearly the one driving. You can almost see around the corner here as he probes our responses. We (and by that, I really mean the entre West) are merely reacting...and slowly at that. It's a bit frustrating from that perspective.

But I'll try not to be too critical of our administration. I know that being a community organizer was tough but this is really hard.

No.

I'm stating that China and Russia are on the verge of exploding in the super power arena and we are cutting our military to pre-american super power levels. I'm stating that the USD is hyperinflated and is likely to devalue and collapse as the world currency by 2020. I'm stating that the whole world has been acting a fool, civil unrest, civil wars, border disputes and highly tense economic deals that are leading nations to build Armies while we are disassembling ours.

I'm just saying we should all wake up and take a hard look at the future and how our children will have to live in it. Do we send our.kids off to war to fight communist in order to slow their rate of growth/maintain our crazy failing system. Or do we stop acting like snobs and focus on ensuring a safe and prosperous future for our kids kids?

I don't really give two shits if China or Russia want to be communist. I don't care if the whole planet wants to be communist, as long as America gets to be America and my kids don't have to live through a fucking nuclear fall out.

Honestly China is really the only true Communist country right now (I put NK under China being the child leader is doing whatever he wants and is simply a puppet on a Chinese string). Russia is a democracy now, albeit a fucked up one. I don't think China will stay communist forever, the more their people become globalized, the more they will move to democracy.

But no I am not for communism here in the USA.
I actually see China and Russia as opportunists.

The world does not view the U.S. on the idealistic pedestal that it perhaps once did. In many ways we've become the big guy that everyone loves to hate; sure we have loyal fans but to many others we're also despised. We're the New York Yankees and Dallas Cowboys of the world stage. Putin has shown he understands this, knows exactly how to leverage this to his greatest advantage, and has the balls to stand up to us (mostly because we've built a policy over the years that has allowed it). Many admire him for that. Like Putin, the Chinese recognize this and will use it to their advantage to expand their sphere of influence. As another post/editorial eluded to, Putin lives in the reality of the world and knows how to navigate it to his advantage as opposed to living some fantasy of what the world should be.

We need to adjust our approach such that we place ourselves clearly at the top of the pyramid again as the country others look to and aspire to. We need to begin leading again.
 
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Fuck it, if we're going to have WW3 why not over Ukraine. :rolleyes:

I honestly don't see the strategic benefit for even being tied into NATO with of all places Russia's next-door neighbor Ukraine. If Russia had the same agreements with say Mexico or Canada, we would have an issue with it....say like how we did in the 60's and Cuba?

I really can't believe we (the world) are so stupid we are going to start the cold war all over again.

We fought WWI and WWII over less important countries
 
Blame the ensuing disaster on a little known you tube video

.....

Profit?

Actually this crap Ukrainian recruiting video may just have been insulting enough to kick it off.

 
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Love the attacks against Obama over this.
I'm going to start browsing the forums back to 2008 and see if there were any attacks against Bush over Russia invading Georgia.

oh the hypocrisy
 
Love the attacks against Obama over this.
I'm going to start browsing the forums back to 2008 and see if there were any attacks against Bush over Russia invading Georgia.

oh the hypocrisy
The Obama administration is weak without question. But there is also no question that how we got here is larger than just him.
 
I am not saying put troops into the Ukraine, but bolstering Poland as part of a NATO agreement (to me) is a given, otherwise disband NATO as the Russians use our unwillingness to honor treaty committments against us.

I agree with disbanding NATO, or at least pulling the US out of NATO. IMO, we've given a lot more than we've ever gotten, both in material and moral support. Let the Europeans go it alone for a while.

Crap, I'm starting to sound like a Bircher... :wall:
 
@dknob, I remember the Georgia invasion thread, its a shame its gone.

As for Bush, he really screwed us up economically without a doubt and Obamas policies from what I can tell have been nothing more than an extension of Bush's. However Bush didn't want to gut our military, and to be fair the Georgian war with Russia (if you can call it that) was as Bush was on his way out of office. Bush seemed to have better relations with Putin then Obama has had.

But anyway, there is no hypocrisy, a few things have changed in the last 6 years, under Obama and not all of it had to do with Bush or is comparable between the two administrations.

That said, I have no doubt Bush would have claimed Russia as part of the axis of evil and and had a Wanted Dead or Alive poster made up with Putin's face on it. :rolleyes:

Between blow-job Willy, studering Bush and don't cross my red line Obama, its not hard to see how we have gotten here to this point.
 
Been to China lately? They are about as Communist as California.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101462380

The rural areas of China are still feeling the pains of communism, but yes I agree China is changing. There is an interesting video on youtube that gives the Taiwan view on having to deal with Communist China. I'll see if I can dig it up later.
 
C&P from a friend who posted this elsewhere.....

From a retired Soldier over in Ukraine. Something to think about, for Ukraine AND the United States.

-----------

One of my Ukrainian colleagues asked me if I was informing my friends back home about the situation here. I admitted that I've only talked to my wife much about it and he accepted that. I got to thinking and decided that I've been delinquent.

I came here in 2005 on a contract to help build a professional corps of NCOs for the Ukrainian Army. It was a dismal failure. The military budget couldn't support building the kind of NCO corps the US Army has. Ukraine just doesn't have the budget for the personnel and training changes that are necessary. Also, as a result of many years of European and Soviet style military doctrine, the junior leaders are officers. NCOs are just technicians. That's worked for them for a couple centuries. The current mid grade officers recognized that this wasn't the most efficient way of leadership, but they just can't convince the civilians to put enough in the budget to professionalize the force. Conscription stopped this year, but they are a long way from developing a small, professional army.

I left Ukraine and went back to Iraq, then Germany, then Afghanistan. I came back to Ukraine when I got the opportunity to work at one of the few diamonds in the rough that I'd seen in Ukraine on my earlier contract. I'm now a NATO procedures instructor at the Ukrainian Land Forces Academy, their version of West Point.

During my last 3 years here now, I've met and worked with several Ukrainian mid-grade (major through colonel) and junior grade (lieutenant and captain) officers plus a few hundred cadets. I've made friends, a couple enemies, and a lot of good colleagues. I've met local civilians and have eaten in some fantastic cafes. I enjoy living in Lviv, here in western Ukraine. It has a history that goes back a couple thousand years and is rich in a culture that even Soviet occupation for 50 years could not destroy.

Ukrainians are almost as much of a mixed culture as is the USA. There are leftists, rightists, centrists, and a few idiots. There is a small but vocal group that bears resemblance to the Nazi Party in Germany in 1939. There are human rights activists, well educated professionals, business entrepreneurs, and criminals. Just like home. What amazed me, however, was the level of corruption. I expected it, after having worked in former socialist countries before, and have seen what happens when you toss out the communists.
The only groups ready to replace the communists ... the only groups with an formal/semi-formal hierarchy, organization, chains of command, resource procurement procedures, etc... The only groups immediately available... are the crooks and criminal organizations.

What usually happens is the crooks make their way into government positions; both elected and appointed, and just raise the level of their operations to a national level. The people usually get tired of it, and either vote them out, or kick their asses out. Once they do, the only groups ready to move back in and take charge are.... the old communists! They'll have a new name, but old styles. So the folks kick them out and the damned crooks come back in... Usually with less power.

Ukraine has gone through these cycles. There is no civil service system here. When a new political party takes charge, everyone who works for the government expects to lose their job. Teachers, civil work technicians, cops, secretaries, postal workers, etc. If they don't offer a bribe to their new politically appointed boss, they will lose their paycheck.

Cops are a special thing. No city cops, no state cops, just the national police. And they get paid MUCH less than minimum wage. A cop does not chase criminals; he chases his boss's political opponents. A traffic cop does not enforce traffic laws, he fights to get assigned to a check point on a good street so he can stop new cars and extort money from the driver (obviously well off... he's driving a new car) using some trumped up charge. I've been stopped many times. They want me to blow into a fake breathalyzer so they can charge me with DUI. I was stopped once and they asked for my ID and drivers license. I unbuckled my seat belt to get to my wallet. The cop looked at my license and then wanted to charge me with not wearing my seatbelt. Normal Ukrainians normally pay the cop somewhere between $12 to $20 to get on their way. I show my US passport and start dialing the embassy on my cell phone. They usually let me go.

Businesses are extorted by officers attempting to enforce unwritten city codes. Driving schools don't teach kids to drive; the kids can buy a license for $50 and walk out the same day they enrolled in the course. Everything is like that.

When I got here I was just flat amazed how deep the corruption was. My translator asked me how I would handle such a situation back in south Texas. I told him we had enforceable laws, much more accountability of officials ... and as a last resort, the .45 on my hip and the AR-15 in my bedroom gun cabinet. He sighed.... said we have none of that. We can't make changes.
Well folks. Ukrainians stood up on their hind legs these last few months, and they fought back against the crooks... and they won! More than one hundred of them died doing it. It'll take the new folks in government to change what they had. It's hard changing a nation, a culture of corruption, a business environment that doesn't know how to enforce contract law. But they want to give it a chance.

And now, Vladimir Putin has decided that he can't allow the new Ukraines to succeed. Because if they do, Russians might decide to get rid of the criminals who are the Russian Mafia, and the people like Putin who are trying to rebuild ... not the Soviet Union ... but the old Russian Empire . There are good geo-political reasons for him to desire that. But it comes at the cost of Ukrainian freedoms to choose.

The US will not, maybe cannot jump in here and oppose the Russians militarily (the US has zero tanks left in Germany, folks). The Germans, Brits, French, etc don't have the forces to do it either. Nor the political will. So a NATO military option is out of the question. The Ukrainian military is too small, too under-resourced, and too tied to old Soviet style doctrine to go it alone.

So, what is left?

That will be up to President Obama, the British Prime Minister, Ban-Ki-Moon at the UN, and, believe it or not, the people and prime minister of Turkey. The Poles might go up against the Russians. They've done it before. Polish military history is pretty brave. They've been outclassed and outmatched, but no one can ever accuse them of cowardice. If the Russians try to take western Ukraine, the Pole might surprise everyone.

I support what the Ukrainians are trying to do. I can't do much about it, except teach my cadets. Because of the semi-official position I work in, I can't do much more. If it gets too dangerous out here in western Ukraine, I have to go home. If it gets too politically strenuous for the US, the State Department might order us to go home. I'm not impressed with John Kerry whining that Putin doesn't respond to our super-civilized new world society. He is "stunned" that Mr. Putin acted in the same old way that Russians have always reacted. By force. By making your enemies fear you. By taking action, not talking. I'm amazed that anyone with a clue really thinks that this 21st century is going to be much different than the 19th century. History shows us otherwise. Every Damned Time.

So, I've made my conscience easier by writing this. The old Ukrainian colleague who asked if I had written my friends is a retired colonel. A full professor. And he is itching to put his uniform back on and go defend Ukraine. Against the Russians. Against a force a hundred times bigger. He has a beautiful, thirteen year old daughter. Who wants to be a ballerina. And he wants her to have the opportunity to do it in a free, law-abiding, free-enterprise nation. And he's willing to go up against the Russian Bear to do it.

I just wanted you to know.
 
I'm no fan of Poland's military, but we have to honor our treaties or dissolve them.
Why is that? My experience was that that they were only non-anglo (US-Brit-Canada- Aussie) troops conducting agressive operations in the multi-national zone in Iraq. They seemed pretty profesional for a recently eastern block military.
Reed
 
Why is that? My experience was that that they were only non-anglo (US-Brit-Canada- Aussie) troops conducting agressive operations in the multi-national zone in Iraq. They seemed pretty profesional for a recently eastern block military.
Reed

Having worked with and been around their battlegroup in Afghanistan from 08-11. I won't openly list the many reasons why I think that though I'm told they've improved somewhat since 2012 or so. Their first 3 years in country were..."poor."
 
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