Sec Mabus and Lady SEALs

[Johca]

- but I also feel like there should be a basic standard for all with more rigorous standards for certain jobs.

Very difficult to implement a basic core fitness ability standard accross several different job classifications and duty positions as the typical skills and tasks performed in the typical operations environment determine the level of fitness to do the job.

In actuality how fast and far a person can run or the number of calisthenics that can be done is a poor direct indicator of body characteristics having capability to do task and skills in the operations/mission environment. Such job/duty specific standards are actually the last nail in the unable to perform to standards coffin or the first assessment showing adequate fitness exists to begin the assessment individual is regaining an operational level of fitness as the starting point of being fit enough to do proficiency training and requalification training.

COMDINST M6200.1A, chapter 4, Physical Fitness Program:

Coast Guard personnel have a duty to be operationally ready to respond to situations affecting public safety and/or national security. A physically fit member has a greater chance of successfully coping with physical requirements and higher stress levels placed upon them in operational and emergency situations. Although the Coast Guard does not currently require mandatory physical fitness testing for all members, Command and individual responsibilities with respect to physical fitness do exist and are covered in this chapter. Specific duty assignments including BTM, BO, LEDET, TACLET, MSST, MSRT, boat crew, and rescue swimmers do have mandatory physical fitness requirements not covered here.

The Physical Training Exam Requirements for performing Helicopter Rescue Swimmer duties (no gender differences and test is a monthly requirement) ref http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/3000-3999/CIM_3710_4C.pdf an interesting read to get an understanding of specific duty asignment fitness requirements:

Shoulder Width Push-ups
50 (2-minute time limit)
Sit-ups
60 (2-minute time limit)
Pull-ups
5 (No time limit)
Chin-ups
5 (No time limit)
Crawl Swim
500 yards (12-minute time limit)
Underwater Swim
25 yards, repeat four times with 60seconds rest between swims
Buddy Tow
200 yards

 

[Rapid]

Those requirements seem remarkably low (though of course you should never settle for just scraping by). I suppose a Rescue Swimmer's duties are a bit far off from the PJs, but still. When 5 pull ups is all that's required, the fact that it's "gender equal" doesn't really seem that special.

 

[Johca]

When 5 pull ups is all that's required, the fact that it's "gender equal" doesn't really seem that special.

I recommended reading the document (page 3.5 and subsequent) as there are other performance activities they must do monthly that may change your mind. Also notice chin-up and pull-up requirement. One is palm towards and the other is palm away. Try doing five of each and let me know how you do. Not saying its hard, but for both genders it is a fair standard for the operations environment and job they are expected to do.

 

[Johca]

BTW the objective of operational fitness is not how high you can set the standard just because you can for example cause a gender discriminator, but rather what is the reasonable fitness standard that establishes safety by reducing injury risks in training and represents reasoned survivability in the operations environment. The fitness standard cannot by itself do this because the job tasks of for instance saving somebodies life is not having the person being rescued count how many push-ups you can do.

What the fitness standard does establish is the minimum level of fitness capability exists that reduces susceptibility to injury and is the minimal fitness for core task sets and skill performance all members of the classification (MOS, AFSC, NEC/Rate) must have a level of proficiency in doing.

Actual occupation fitness is actually demonstrated in the frequent assessment performance of core task sets and skill performance. A lack of required occupation fitness is often noticed by team members and supervisors long before a documented fitness test failure. The fitness test is the last documentation needed to document an individual’s lack of operations suitability or the first documentation showing fitness is improving towards having operations suitability.

Operational Suitability is the degree to which a person can be placed in the operations environment and sustain satisfactory (for PJs it would be better described as survivability) performance with consideration given to interoperability, reliability, wartime usage rates, maintainability, environmental, safety and occupational health, human factors, manpower availability and training requirements.

To see how Physical Ability and Stamina Test (PJ physical fitness test) is integrated into and augments Operational Suitability standards read http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI16-1202V2.pdf particularly chapters 3 and chapter 4.

This might also be an interesting read http://www.alaska.net/~jcassidy/pdf_files/Functional%20Fitness.pdf

 

[Ranger Psych]

You're right, someone being rescued doesn't count your pushups.

They do count your upper body and core strength single rep lift max into the firemans/buddy carry as a pass or fail event.
They do count your endurance of a skedco drag over unknown terrain for unknown distance...etc, etc etc.

you know this, i know this.

You have to set a minimum bar that all must pass to be able to play... sorta like the minimum height at disneyland. You either can ride, or you're stuck in the teacups.

Segregating physical requirements solely by MOS would introduce a nutroll, the proportions of which would exceed the diameter of Jupiter. There needs to be a higher minimum standard anyway overall simply because congrats:

Non-linear battlefield.
You'll have to get to that FOB somehow, and it probably means a convoy or a bird... either of which can get shot up or shot down. Hey, that infantryman who's part of convoy security needs someone to come with him flanking, you're there with that M4 in your hand... but you're an intel dude who only needed to do 2 miles in 2 decades and a pushup for extra credit... but sarge, 670-1 said pt was optional for 69 hotels...

This is why the RPAT, and the new PT test that's supposed to be coming out, is fucking awesome. Combined scored event and physical capability assessment rolled up into one. Only thing they need to do is toss a rifle qualification in at the end with targets from 0-300m... the 0 meter target you bayonet then buttstroke.

 

[Etype]

In the Army specifically, I'd like to see one scale for PT. Everyone should be graded on the same scale, but given different standards based on age and sex- not given a different scale based on age and sex. This way, soldiers can be compared directly to another based on their score. A 37 year old female getting a 300 and me at 26 years old getting a 300 are two different things. Lets compare:
I have to do 80 sit ups, she has to do 76.
I have to do 75 push ups, she has to do 40.
I have to run 2 miles in 13:00, she has 17 minutes.
On paper, we would be considered equal, however, anyone who's not a neo-sexist (aka- a blind feminist) and has half a clue about how the PT test grading scale works knows that is not the case.

There are women that can do pushups, women that can do situps, some who can run, some who can shoot, and some can ruck- but there are very few that can do all of these things to any type of standard; just as there are men who can knit, men who can tolerate the crying of babies, and men who can find other men attractive- if these apply to said individual, it's a rare and unnatural case.

Here in the natural world, my wife takes care of my kids because I don't have the patience to do so, she cooks because she enjoys, and cleans the house because she has an eye for where the throw pillows should go. I work hard and support the family because I have the strength and stamina to endure hard work, I change the oil/brakes/light bulbs/air filters, mow the lawn, take out the trash, etc. because women shouldn't have to lift heavy loads, get blisters, bust their knuckles, etc. or any other thing that doesn't hurt a real man if she doesn't have to.

I'm done.

 

[is friday]

There was an article in the Marine Corps Times about this and how some women thought "they can do it". While I'm sure that a few women actually can be decent grunts, they're an exception. If you put 50 women straight out of boot into an 03xx MOS and 50 men into an 03xx--you're going to get a better success rate in training from the latter group. This doesn't even include all the psychological issues with combat and how women would adversely affect a combat unit.

 

[Rapid]

I recommended reading the document (page 3.5 and subsequent) as there are other performance activities they must do monthly that may change your mind. Also notice chin-up and pull-up requirement. One is palm towards and the other is palm away. Try doing five of each and let me know how you do. Not saying its hard, but for both genders it is a fair standard for the operations environment and job they are expected to do.

I know what chin ups and pull ups are. I still think that isn't much (especially the chin ups, which I didn't even feel was worth mentioning). Firefighters in Paris are recommended to do at least fifteen pull ups, at initial selection, to be even considered to pass on to the next stages. They also pass a whole host of other assessments, including aquatic tests, which are in another league compared to the rescue swimmers' standards. Granted, the firefighters of Paris are an elite corps, and are part of the military, but so are the rescue swimmers (at least in regards to "part of the military"). Firefighters' PT standards go up after initial selection, too.

The female firefighters pass the same tests too, and for those reasons there aren't many of them. So perhaps the standards for rescue swimmers are lower because they want more women, while still claiming that they have "gender-equal" tests? It might also be because rescue swimmers don't need to be as physically fit (all around) as elite firefighters, due to their jobs being quite different (more focused on swimming-based tasks, I guess). In that case though, citing them as an example of a unit which uses "gender-equal tests" is surely a poor choice when we're talking about elite forces (in which you do need to be very fit, all around).

 

[dknob]

After joining a Crossfit gym.. I have realized there are women out there that can physically keep up in a SOF unit.

But what about the other factors?

What if she is good looking? A good looking woman in a den of Alpha males. Because there will ALWAYS be a tremendous difference in ratio between Males and Females maybe 1 to 100? Some guy likes the chick, one guy bangs her, she bangs another guy a few months down the road and it creates drama. Even if there is no banging going on, sexually and female deprived guys will grow more "Attached" to the woman of the platoon.

As you said, a presence of a woman creates other serious problems and not just an issue of physical fitness.

 

[Gypsy]

In the Army specifically, I'd like to see one scale for PT. Everyone should be graded on the same scale, but given different standards based on age and sex- not given a different scale based on age and sex. This way, soldiers can be compared directly to another based on their score. A 37 year old female getting a 300 and me at 26 years old getting a 300 are two different things. Lets compare:
I have to do 80 sit ups, she has to do 76.
I have to do 75 push ups, she has to do 40.
I have to run 2 miles in 13:00, she has 17 minutes.
On paper, we would be considered equal, however, anyone who's not a neo-sexist (aka- a blind feminist) and has half a clue about how the PT test grading scale works knows that is not the case.

IMO you're not equal on paper or otherwise. When a female soldier can do what you can do in the time YOU are alloted...then you may be equal. Key word is still *may*...

 

[Servimus]

The female firefighters pass the same tests too, and for those reasons there aren't many of them.

My father has worked for Miami-Dade Fire Rescue for years now, and while he's worked with several women (they're being hired more and more) and has had nothing but good words, there have been issues with women not keeping up with fitness. Getting a 300 lb man on a stretcher is difficult when the woman on the rescue you're working with has gotten accustomed to not exercising. Carrying fire hose if they're on a truck and responding to a fire, etc.

It's something that he hasn't encountered often, but it's still a problem.

 

[Pistol_Pete]

After joining a Crossfit gym.. I have realized there are women out there that can physically keep up in a SOF unit.

But what about the other factors?

What if she is good looking? A good looking woman in a den of Alpha males. Because there will ALWAYS be a tremendous difference in ratio between Males and Females maybe 1 to 100? Some guy likes the chick, one guy bangs her, she bangs another guy a few months down the road and it creates drama. Even if there is no banging going on, sexually and female deprived guys will grow more "Attached" to the woman of the platoon.

As you said, a presence of a woman creates other serious problems and not just an issue of physical fitness.

Can they hump a ruck and carry a man a significant distance and keep up the pace? Or is it the other way around? I'm "confused" :cool: (jk, damnit!)

Seriously though, the only true test IMO is doing it exactly the way SOF teams do it, and they do it to a level that most men can't even keep up with. Damn near killed a lot of us just doing routine day to day training. Rough terrain, carrying tremendous loads, weeks on end living in the dirt. Or how about in a hole as part of a sniper/recon team with another dude or two. Sounds just "peachy".

I agree with you, there are a lot of factors that people don't think of let alone have a clue about as they cast their resentment from their Ivory Towers and accuse SOF of being all sorts of non-Politically Correct things. I've heard every accusation leveled at SOF from the typical hater / "resenter" crowd. We need to learn that sometimes the best adage is; "if it ain't broke don't fix it" - at least in the military, if not as an entire nation.

 

[Johca]

…citing them as an example of a unit which uses "gender-equal tests" is surely a poor choice when we're talking about elite forces (in which you do need to be very fit, all around).

The minimum fitness standard of the Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue Swimmer Program is certainly influenced by the policy decision of giving as much opportunity for women to do these duties if they so desire.

However it is exactly because it is a special duty not required to hold and perform duties of the Aviation Survival Technicians enlisted job classification for a career combined with duty positions for performing such duties numbering at about 360 that makes it an excellent comparison choice. Elite has many perspectives, most often it means simply highly trained. The capability connected to elite changes as you pointed out from occupation to occupation and from organization to organization. Elite also changes in a career progression perspective as promotion generally means (especially in the commissioned world) more rear element HQ staff and support duties and less direct action tactical being there.

http://www.gocoastguard.com/get-the-answers/faqs#What is a rescue swimmer and how do I become one?

What is a rescue swimmer and how do I become one?

They are a small group within the U.S. Coast Guard, only about 300 of them service-wide. To join their ranks, candidates must endure physical and mental challenges that rival those facing any potential Army Ranger, Navy SEAL, or Air Force Pararescueman.

The Coast Guard's rescue swimmers are the brave young men and women who hoist or free fall from a helicopter into dangerous seas to perform daring rescues.

The rescue swimmer training school has one of the highest student attrition rates of any special operations school in the military. Roughly 75 students go through the school each year, and fewer than half complete the training.

A side-by-side gender comparison of all who sustain qualifications does nothing as it will always result in finding a few women can be trained and qualified to perform duties at the initial entry level operations capability. The struggle to keep up is a valid capability point, but it is not any gender’s fitness test failure that documents the impact to unit or team capability, but rather the inability to sustain a level and develop a higher level of unit/team operations capability.

When I introduced Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue Swimmer program and operations as my comparison choice I posed two questions.

The Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue swimmer is open to females, how many sustain their readiness and qualification to perform such duties for a full enlistment? How many for the duration of two or more consecutive enlistments?

These two question were aimed directly at the serviceability (continued career operations availability) of the initial entry level operations capability.

This is immediately directly aimed at full operational capability or unit’s combat readiness. In general this means the unit maintains a capability and has the ability to immediately employ it. A too low of a fitness standard and the unit has both males and females struggling to keep-up. A too high of a standard results in a pointless manpower availability shortage.

A gender neutral fitness standard lacking purpose of lowering risk of performing core skill tasks in all expected operations environment is a pointless politically correct endeavor. It results in ever increasing percentages of members (both genders) in the unit/team struggling to keep-up and causes impairment of the unit’s/team’s full operational capability. Eventually the unit’s/team’s operational capability is so compromised it lacks availability and usability.

The Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue Swimmer fitness standard meets the operations and manpower costs acceptable to the UC Coast Guard. Helicopter Rescue swimmers promotions and career progression is as an AST as this is their enlisted job classification. The US Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer does not provide a small unit/team tactical capability and lacks a force development need for any level of small tactical unit leadership. The unfit helicopter rescue swimmer remains a fully trained interchangeable Aviation Survival Technicians that perform duties of inspecting and repairing equipment.

Many military occupations that are considered special operations are specific occupations with possible exception of duty assignment to 75th Ranger Regiment into a Ranger coded manpower position. As far as I know there is no specific Ranger MOS as there is for Special Forces (18 series). However generally all exist to execute missions organized at some level as a small tactical unit/team. This brings with it the force development requirement to build new/replacement competent leaders, trainers, and instructors. Thus a gender neutral fitness standard that allows increasing numbers of members unable to sustain personal mission readiness and availability (pregnancy, frequent illness, and frequent injury) is a mission reliability and availability problem (The probability that the small tactical unit is available and will perform its required mission-critical functions for the duration of a specified critical or crisis mission needing to be accomplished).

Thus:

Defense Secretary Robert Gates expressed a similar view late last year, telling North Carolina ROTC students that he believes women will eventually be allowed to serve in special operations jobs. At some point, he said, "there will be a careful step in that direction."

It will be an operations risk analysis and manpower costs analysis decision with some political appeasement of convenience included and not a minimum fitness level standard to do the job decision.

 

[TLDR20]

You show me a group of women who can pick up my limp 200lb body(without kit, 270+ with kit) alone without any help and carry me 100+m I will say they are good to go. I haven't seen one in the army, ever.

 

[Centermass]

Too lazy to retype all this, so I just reposted it. Just my .02 fwiw.

Put together a course thats fair and realistic. PT, Marksmanship, Obstacle Course, 20 mile Road March, 15km Forced March (50lb ruck minimum for both) Water Confidence Course, Drownproofing, Hand 2 Hand Combatives, Assault Course, Land Navigation, Shoot House, CQB Drills, Immediate Action Drills, Stress shoot, Cas Evac (Of men 160 lbs and more) No showers, no washers, dryers, clean uniforms, clean underwear, access to feminine hygiene products, and all this without the variables of the desert heat (100 degrees plus) arctic (-50 degrees or more) or a jungle environment, 100% humidity, constant rain, 99 degree heat, sweating your butt off, just getting downright filthy and nasty, still carrying your combat load just for starters and see how they fair.

Then, there are the actual realities of war that can't be replicated in any degree, that if they've never been there, they wouldn't understand it or grasp the reality of such. Most people in general don't know or have a fucking concept as to what a bullet does to the human body. Can you look your adversary in the eye and actually pull the trigger without hesitation at the moment of truth? The grotesque reality of what combat and war is really like, up close and personal is what they say they want, but in fact, do they really? Be careful what you truly wish for, because you may just damn well get it handed to you in spades.

There have been these panels and those who are the target audience, who sit there, discuss equality, and say there are those who have what it takes. I'd say have at it, except for the fact they would wind up being a burden, security risk and in a perfect position to jeopardize the lives of men capable of doing what they have no business of doing or somewhere they were never meant to be in the first place. And rather than have this little experiment costing the lives of others for no reason, and that includes getting themselves into a position of compromise on the battlefield and 30 guys lose their own lives in the process of bailing them out, trying to rescue them, I would say hopefully, there are those out there who know better (GROUND Combat experience in a congressional seat) and are in a better position than I am, to make the right call.

The fact is there are the physical realities to all this and then, even more-so in my book, the mental aspects of which most of them, in the end, don't have a clue about what it is in real life, up close and personal. See how much a ruck or kit really weighs when you're being fired upon and someone is trying to kill you, 50 lbs will seem like 200. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not saying any of this to put anyone down, it is what it is.

On the heels of DADT being repealed, I knew this was coming next.

This is not someone who believes women should be barefoot, pregnant, subserviant or neanderthal in their thinking either. Women have always had their place in the Military and always will. They have made great sacrifices and significant contributions to its success.

The front lines of intense, all out, hell on earth combat, in combat arms, let alone SOF type units however, ain't it.

 

[Unstoppable]

Its taken the bigwigs this long to "allow women in combat" or whatever BS they're saying(as though they weren't already in combat unofficially anyway), I'd imagine it'd take quite a few more years for there to be women SEALS.

 

[Unstoppable]

If such a thing were to occur that is.

 

[reed11b]

nevermind...
Reed

 

[AWP]

Nice necrothreading...

 

[Marauder06]

A valid point if excellence established a performance standard in an operations environment demarcation.

...

Good post.