Syria Gas Attack- What Now?

[Kunoichii]

It's one thing hearing about it, but it's another thing seeing it. I get the media is doing what it usually does, but they are just kids. If that country as a whole doesn't buck up and eat the people responsible alive, they need to.

 

[goon175]

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't get involved. After reading the link Mara posted it would not take much effort to get me back in uniform and over there. I just think that if we do in fact commit money and man power (i.e. American lives) there needs to be a clear goal. If that is to remove all CBRN weapons from the country, fine. If it is to take out Assad, great. If it is to do both those things plus put an interim government into place, I'm cool with that. But it needs to be spelled out, the goal needs to be pursued with ferocity, and then we need to step back once the goal is achieved. If we can't do that, then we need to stay on the sidelines.

 

[pardus]

Politicians are incapable of making reasonable decisions.
All we will do by going in there is jump back into another quagmire.

Why is Syria so important? Because the fucking media says it's important, thats why.

Where is the outrage at Dafur? Congo? Zimbabwe? Tibet?

I hate seeing innocents victimized, really angers and saddens me but this is a no win situation. The US needs to STFU on this issue unless it goes through the UN IMO, and I really think we should let other countries take the lead on this.
I also think it's unconscionable that we are supplying and supporting our sworn enemy because they are fighting someone else we don't like.

Does anyone think that honors the thousands of US troops killed and maimed in the GWOT?

 

[AWP]

I also think it's unconscionable that we are supplying and supporting our sworn enemy because they are fighting someone else we don't like.

Pick up a copy of Kaplan's Warrior Politics, it discusses this issue or variations of it. It is a great, quick, thought-provoking read.

The problem with looking at two sides in a conflict is the human tendency to pick a side which leaves us choosing the lesser of two evils. A) Who says we have to pick a side and B) who says WE aren't a side? Nations have to act in THEIR best interests. A nation shouldn't squander "blood and treasure" just to do the right thing. The right thing is for that nation's citizens, not the residents of Country X. If the two intersect, so much the better.

 

[DA SWO]

http://www.sott.net/article/242143-CIA-or-Mossad-Snipers-Caught-in-Syria

@Marauder06, I think we could bomb the shit out of the Assad regime, as well as get the UN to step in with a security force. Chemical weapons being used on civi's is not something the worlds super power should sit back and watch IMHO. I agree with many of your points, but find it silly that we are wasting money and blood in Afghanistan, when we could do some good in other places. I am not calling for a full on invasion/occupation of Syria. I am saying lets not sit on the sidelines and watch on TV while people get killed with chemical weapons.

I actually agree with most of your post, just still think we need to take a long look at ourself and figure out what we actually stand for.

As for Russia and Iran, why would we allow those cock-suckers to have further influance in the ME? I don't doubt the problems involved, but I think we are setting our future up for another bullshit cold war by allowing them to influance places like Syria...

$.02

What if the Rebels used the weapons and not the regime? or Hamas used them or the Iranians? Do we bomb Assad because he is the easiest target, and that way we can say we did something?

Let then duke it out, I am tied of saving mu slime's from themselves.

 

[Marauder06]

JAB- thanks for posting a link to that video. I'm not convinced it's legit, though. It's interesting to me that the only evidence of it is an Arabic-language propaganda video. To me, the fact that this hasn't been picked up by more credible news sources makes me doubt its legitimacy.

//

As for the Syria gassing situation, we don't know who conducted the attack. It may have been the Assad regime. It may have been the rebels. It may have been the Russians, or the Iranians. Heck, it may have been Mossad or the CIA for all we know. But that's the point- WE DON'T KNOW. I'm in no hurry to join the crowds of people falling over themselves to demand "action" in Syria. To those who want "action" in Syria: Buy a plane ticket and a set of 5.11 pants and go over and join the rebels. Oh, not willing to do that? Then why do you think it's OK to expect me to do it for you?

Even if we did know who gassed these Syrians (and I'm assuming that the gassing did actually happen), I'm still not sure how this falls into the spectrum of "things that are my problem." The rebels are not on our side. The Syrian government is certainly no friend of ours. My only concern is how this tangibly affects US interests. The main interest I see is not allowing Syria to become a failed state, and becoming Afghanistan with more money and a coastline. Now, what side gives us the better chance of Syria not becoming a failed state, or a state with an extreme Islamist ideology- the rebels, or Assad? Something to think about.

 

[Scotth]

The problem with the middle east is you can't change generations of learned behavior fast enough to bring real change. Even if you go in and separate the combatants and bring a lull in the fighting you still have to deal with corrupt leadership which is a no win situation. Look at Vietnam and then Iraq and Afghanistan. The next leader ends up only being marginally less corrupt then the leader you ousted. If you can't work with a real partner to rebuild the country it's never going to work.

If true, who really launched the attack? Assad would be stupid for doing it, but the rebels could blame him to draw other players into the war.

I'm with SOWT here. Assad saw what happened to Sadaam when keep kept challenging the US and I don't see how he would push the world community and risk intervention. Maybe if he was cornered and losing and had no other options but that is hardly the case right now so it hard to fathom he would go this route.

I feel bad for the people of Syria but sometimes letting them earn their freedom will make them appreciate it more when they get it. Look at Egypt it is a mess but they will work for a resolution they can all live with. Their first elected leader didn't respect the people and he got removed and I bet the next guy will learn from Morrisey's mistake.

 

[AWP]

I bet the next guy will learn from Morrisey's mistake.

Becoming a vegetarian or his relationship with Johnny Marr?

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

@Marauder06 do you think I would ask someone to go do what I wouldn't/haven't?

I have some irritation with your last post, so I'll leave it at this....I disagree with your stance that we should not be involved in taking down the Assad regime, but do understand your point of view.

 

[Marine0311]

We should not be involved in this shit storm.

 

[Marauder06]

@Marauder06 do you think I would ask someone to go do what I wouldn't/haven't?

I have some irritation with your last post, so I'll leave it at this....I disagree with your stance that we should not be involved in taking down the Assad regime, but do understand your point of view.

Be irritated all you want, it doesn't change the truth or the logic of what I posted.

Everything past the // wasn't directed at you- that's why it was clearly separated from the part that was directed at you, which was merely to thank you for posting a link to the video and to offer my opinion of it. That said, I can see how my use of the pronoun "you" might be interpreted as singling someone out, when it was meant to be all-encompassing. I will change that.

 

[DA SWO]

Curious, is Sarin a persistent agent?

Medics are handling "supposedly dead/contaminated bodies" with no bio-hazard stuff, shouldn't we be getting reports of secondary casualties?

 

[RetPara]

Sarin is not supposed to be a persistent agent. Medical personnel went into the Kurdish villages Uncle Saddam hit with both Sarin & Mustard agents in the Mid-90's. They reported ground water contamination and some live agents (both Sarin & Mustard) could be found in places that had not be exposed to the weather.

 

[surgicalcric]

It's a good thing we didn't draw a line and tell the Syrians not to cross it or else we'd look like buffoons....

Oops...too late.

 

[surgicalcric]

Do you have a link to that sniper story? This is the first I've heard about that.

Russians and Iranians are fighting Syrians... in Syria... why would we possibly want to get in the middle of that? Maybe it makes more sense to draw this out as much as possible, to bleed all three of them. None of them are friends of ours.

The US cannot afford economically, militarily, or politically, to be the world's policeman anymore. We are in a huge financial crisis. Our military is overextended and about to get massively reduced. No matter what we do in Syria, the people in that region are still going to hate us.

There are many horrific ways to die, and many people in Syria have died in terrible ways. I read a story a short time ago that a Syrian woman got raped to death with a rat. That's terrible. That's horrible. I feel for that woman. But there has to come a time when "that's not my problem" comes into play. I am not convinced that assisting in the downfall of Assad leads to a better result for America. And I personally am not in a huge hurry to go get involved in someone else's civil war. Especially when that war is in the Middle East. If we commit as a nation to do this, I'll go all in and raise my hand to go over. But I'm hoping we have better since.

You mentioned watching "what happened in Iraq happen in Syria." What happened in Iraq is that we got involved in a war we shouldn't have. That is EXACTLY what is going to happen if we intervene militarily in Syria.

I really wish I could like this post most that once.

Well said Sir. I see you are paying attention in those IR classes.

 

[Scotth]

Sarin is not supposed to be a persistent agent. Medical personnel went into the Kurdish villages Uncle Saddam hit with both Sarin & Mustard agents in the Mid-90's. They reported ground water contamination and some live agents (both Sarin & Mustard) could be found in places that had not be exposed to the weather.

Exactly. Unless it's an enclosed area Sarin will dissipate pretty quickly.

 

[RetPara]

Scotth what concerns me though is the ground water contamination. That is a 'forever' issue. From some of the reporting I have seen over the years when the Iraqis hit the Kurds they used both Sarin & Mustard, if the chemicals were combined during aerosol delivery or prior to that with 50/50 mix of Sarin/Mustard in the load tanks on the aircraft. Yes, I realize that might not be a safe or text book method, but there were Iraqis.....

 

[x SF med]

Sarin is not supposed to be a persistent agent. Medical personnel went into the Kurdish villages Uncle Saddam hit with both Sarin & Mustard agents in the Mid-90's. They reported ground water contamination and some live agents (both Sarin & Mustard) could be found in places that had not be exposed to the weather.

Sarin and Mustard are both considered semi-persistent agents, both can be 'deactivated' by exposure to uv, heavy doses of water and bleaches... but... they cause permanent or long lasting damage to organics in the vicinity and can cause localized longterm contamination of ground and soft materials. Yeah, it sucked being an NBC NCO... this shit is scary.

 

[DA SWO]

Sarin and Mustard are both considered semi-persistent agents, both can be 'deactivated' by exposure to uv, heavy doses of water and bleaches... but... they cause permanent or long lasting damage to organics in the vicinity and can cause localized longterm contamination of ground and soft materials. Yeah, it sucked being an NBC NCO... this shit is scary.

So Sarin delivered at night would drift into homes, where is should remain for awhile, correct?
Wouldn't medical/rescue types get exposed by running into those dwellings?

Something just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[x SF med]

So Sarin delivered at night would drift into homes, where is should remain for awhile, correct?
Wouldn't medical/rescue types get exposed by running into those dwellings?

Something just doesn't seem right to me.

Depends on type of burst/employment, concentration and Wx conditions... but hell yeah, ALWAYS suit the fuck up before going into any area with suspected CBR contamination .... death is not fun... and depending on the agent (when you get there assume the worst possible shit you could ever imagine, multiply by 1000, and prep for that) it could be horrible and slow.