The Trump Presidency 2.0

[ThunderHorse]

And a graduate of two Ivy Leagues, even, the first being Princeton (EDIT: oops, looks like @Marauder06 already touched on this point a minute or two before this post! ).

Agreed that his spread doesn't match the typical background for this position, but his personal past conduct seems to be the biggest of the red flags, just going off the basic reading I've only now done on him.

The only thing that seems to stick out is his "alcohol abuse" and the had two divorces. But I literally had never heard of this guy until after Trump was elected the second time, maybe I'm memory holing stuff because supposedly he thought about nominating him for SECDEF then SECVA the last time? If public drunkenness is a problem, like we literally have events in the Army where binge drinking it encouraged. And also corporate America and in banking? Alcohol is on the low end of substance abuse items.

 

[Devildoc]

I mean I guess Harvard is OK if that's all you can get into ;)

Yeah, a Princeton-Harvard academic convo is pretty solid. Both of those programs are prestigious and competitive. This goes back to a point I've made several times that most of the people who make the major decisions for our country go to a handful of schools--mainly (but not exclusively) the Ivies and the Academies (or both) and it's in our interests to invest time and effort into the young people at those schools to make sure that the military isn't just an abstraction for them.

Hah-vahd. Meh. It's not Duke . I'd rather go to that place in New Haven.

In all seriousness, I'm less impressed that he got in that he thrived and was successful, even by a skewed curve that those schools have he was on the right side. Clearly a highly intelligent man.

 

[Locksteady]

The only thing that seems to stick out is his "alcohol abuse" and the had two divorces.

Oh, then you definitely missed some things man, especially if you're putting alcohol abuse in quotes as if he didn't pass a basic threshold for it - much less the bar (hehe) for someone appointed to make potentially catastrophic life-or-death decisions using the world's most powerful military in history. After reading what I found below, I can see more of why several of his own Republican colleagues even had some reservations about his appointment to SecDef.

Apparently, he was pushed out from both of the veterans advocacy groups he ran. The first, Veterans for Freedom, for mismanaging funds and losing the trust of donors (apparently while managing less than ten employees), and the other, Concerned Veterans for America, for routinely showing up to official events trashed to the point of passing out, being literally carried out of venues, and even calling for the deaths of entire religious groups.

From Wikipedia:

In a whistleblower report, former CVA employees said Pete Hegseth was frequently heavily intoxicated during official events to the point of having to be restrained, passing out, and shouting slogans calling for the death of all Muslims. The report also said that he sexually pursued female employees and under his leadership the organization ignored allegations of sexual impropriety, including allegations of sexual assault. According to reporting by The New Yorker, mismanagement and alcoholism concerns led to Hegseth's forced resignation from CVA in January 2016.

So yes, I think on paper his educational and military pedigrees don't look bad, but I think it's reasonable for anyone to be leery of appointing someone who would've have been disqualified on personal conduct and alcohol abuse alone from accessing or working in a good percentage of the national security activities he'll now be in charge of overseeing and directing.

 

[TLDR20]

Oh, then you definitely missed some things man, especially if you're putting alcohol abuse in quotes as if he didn't pass a basic threshold for it - much less the bar (hehe) for someone appointed to make potentially catastrophic life-or-death decisions using the world's most powerful military in history. After reading what I found below, I can see more of why several of his own Republican colleagues even had some reservations about his appointment to SecDef.

Apparently, he was pushed out from both of the veterans advocacy groups he ran. The first, Veterans for Freedom, for mismanaging funds and losing the trust of donors (apparently while managing less than ten employees), and the other, Concerned Veterans for America, for routinely showing up to official events trashed to the point of passing out, being literally carried out of venues, and even calling for the deaths of entire religious groups.


So yes, I think on paper his educational and military pedigrees don't look bad, but I think it's reasonable for anyone to be leery of appointing someone who would've have been disqualified on personal conduct and alcohol abuse alone from accessing or working in a good percentage of the national security activities he'll now be in charge of overseeing and directing.

I cannot emphasis this enough, he didn’t have a Ranger tab despite being an infantry officer for his entire military career. Somehow this keeps getting ignored because he has tattoos that were totally normal in the infantry particularly in the mid 2000’s, and he gets drunk and cheats on his wives, and acts like a frat boy. Totally normal infantry antics, the lack of a tab is what is concerning to me, not the questionable alcohol related issues, serial adultery, or any other totally normal infantry stuff. We are just gonna let a tabless infantry officer slide to own the libs?
Standards folks. He didn’t meet it.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

the lack of a tab is what is concerning to me,

Are you saying that it’s generally accepted that an Army Infantry Officer should go through Ranger school in a certain timeframe and that he either didn’t go, or could not pass the school?

 

[TLDR20]

Are you saying that it’s generally accepted that an Army Infantry Officer should go through Ranger school in a certain timeframe and that he either didn’t go, or could not pass the school?

Yeah. An Army infantry officer should have a Ranger tab. Ideally before their first unit. For sure before they make Captain. I’m also semi kidding. It is fun to call the SecDef a tabless bitch.

 

[TLDR20]

Are you saying that it’s generally accepted that an Army Infantry Officer should go through Ranger school in a certain timeframe and that he either didn’t go, or could not pass the school?

I honestly thought it was a requirement for a long time. In the Q course I never saw an officer(student) without a tab, I just always assumed that any officer I saw around base without a tab wasn’t infantry. I was inn the Army probably 3-4 years and I’d never met an infantry officer without a tab. I still don’t know of very many. One of my best friends failed out as a 2nd Lt, for pushups I think, and as soon as he showed up to his unit got sent back, and it was made pretty clear to him how his time would go without a tab.

 

[TLDR20]

I am being serious about the tattoos, adultery and alcohol related problems. I don’t know if I can think of 10 total dudes I worked with that didn’t have a questionable tattoo, particularly with a crusader theme, an ex-wife or something sketchy, or who hadn’t made an absolute fool of themselves over alcohol. Different generation I guess. Crusader crosses were a thing there from 04-08 for sure. Those things are whatever to me. I know a lot of guys I’d die for with those tats that I don’t believe are actually calling for a genocidal crusade, shit I came pretty close to having one myself….

I don’t think a guy like our tabless Major friend have any business running an organization like the DOD because they don’t actually know how to run a gigantic organization. If you just want to watch it burn down, cool, he might do that. I have a feeling he will be one of the first to get axed though. I think the way people tried to bitch and moan about his tats and drinking was idiotic. I think he is/was a terrible choice, but we will see. I hope I am wrong!

 

[AWP]

The best thing about Crusader tattoos is how little the wearers know about the Crusades. Same with the Punisher skull and other trendy "virtue signaling" skin art.

Try explaining to some of them how the Templars negotiated truces and even pacts with the Muslims to side with Egypt over Damascus while the Hospitallers did the reverse and watch heads explode.

But...cool ink, bro.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

It's also in our interests to severely limit the F-1s that are approved for those schools (especially MIT and Cal Tech).

Yeah, we need to look at the F-1 program all over again. The number of foreign exchange students here in the US, that have values contrary to ours is insane. Especially those from Islamic cultures, India/SEA, and communist countries like China. It's not everyone, but the behavior and attitude of some of these people is really really bad.

With some of these students, I wonder how soon they'll go into white collar organized crime if/when they leave. It also doesn't help that colleges are addicted to the money these foreign exchange kids bring.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Yeah. An Army infantry officer should have a Ranger tab. Ideally before their first unit. For sure before they make Captain. I’m also semi kidding. It is fun to call the SecDef a tabless bitch.

Damnit, I knew this scenario sounded familiar. Suddenly this 2017 @Marauder06 case study resonates different!

Case Study: Tabs and Tyrants​

I should add, in classic case study fashion, this story began in 2017 and was not wrapped up until 2020. (He was busy!)

When Second Lieutenant Scott Faith arrived at the battalion headquarters of First Battalion, First Brigade, 101st Airborne Division, he carried a folder with his medical and dental records, his inprocessing checklist, and ten copies of his orders. He also carried with him the weight of something he had never experienced before: failure.

Up to this point, Faith had been relatively successful in the things he thought were important in life. He got good grades in high school, coasted through college and ROTC, and got he wanted when it came to commissioning and his Army branch. He never lacked for friends… or girlfriends for that matter. It seemed that he was winning in every aspect of his life. But then, something happened. More specifically, “Ranger School” happened.

Ranger School would be tough, he knew, but it never occurred to him that he wouldn’t come out the other side “tabbed.” Yet here he was, at his first unit, a failure. A non-tabbed Infantry officer. A “tabless bitch.” At the Infantry Officers Basic Course, he was constantly reminded that this was literally the worst thing that could happen to a young lieutenant. “Better to catch a DUI charge en route than to show up at your first unit without a tab,” one of the noncommissioned officers trainers at the Basic Course told him. And Faith believed him. Still believed him. Ever since he got to Fort Campbell, he felt people were watching him, judging him. Because they probably were.

 

[Marauder06]

I guess someone should have told this guy that not having a Ranger tab means you'll never be successful as an Infantry officer in the modern Army. That tab TOTALLY means more than his DSSM and BSM(V). And, you know, all of the stuff he did outside of an Army school.

And earning a tab or a trident or achieving any other high-level achievement totally means a guy is a good dude and would never, under any circumstances, do anything morally questionable like... I don't know... allegedly commit war crimes in Afghanistan.



I'm not trying to make it sound like having a Ranger Tab isn't important, especially for an Infantry officer. It absolutely is. But it's not a litmus test of moral character in the long term, nor is it necessary for success in higher office. Something like a quarter of all SECDEFs never served in the military at all.

This conversation is just as dumb as the "what constitutes SOF" one we always seem to have here.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

<feeling like I just opened an icky can of worms>

 

[Marauder06]

<feeling like I just opened an icky can of worms>

lol

Not at all brother, I'm not emotional about it. I just think there are far better things we can focus on when it comes to shortcomings of our political class than this.

I mean, long before he was SECDEF he accidentally hit an acquaintance of mine with a mis-thrown hatchet. This makes him clearly disqualified to be SECDEF based on hand-eye coordination alone. ;)

Then again maybe if he had earned his Ranger Tab he would have acquired better axe-throwing skills...

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

Coming from a non-airborne (read leg) infantry battalion I can vouch for many Inf. O's not being tabbed. Maybe about half were. In the 82nd and 101st almost all were. Hell, in 07' I met a group of 82nd Stryker dudes bringing the child of one of MAS's main security guys to Ibn Sina hospital in Baghdad. Every dude above E-5 had a tab.

20 y/o me would agree with he tab thing mattering, but being exposed to all sorts of tabbed and non-tabbed Inf. O's, without a doubt I can say plenty of Ranger tabbed O's were clowns and nobody I would want to follow anywhere.

Why didn't Trump get ahold of one of those "smart" flag officers he me flying into Iraq? We'll never know...

 

[AWP]

"Ranger School is a leadership school."
"So, uh, we're commissioning people who don't have enough leadership ability and need even more leadership training? For that we're giving them a tab?"

 

[Devildoc]

I guess someone should have told this guy that not having a Ranger tab means you'll never be successful as an Infantry officer in the modern Army. That tab TOTALLY means more than his DSSM and BSM(V). And, you know, all of the stuff he did outside of an Army school.

Around 2006 I was asked to do med for a Marine unit that was using part of Ft. Bragg's spaces and did some training with the 82nd. We weren't out long, maybe three days. The last day we cleaned up and went on base. We were chatting and one of the soldiers looked at a young Marine, maybe E-3, said something about his CIB, pointed at the Marine and laughed that they didn't have cool badges. The Marine didn't hesitate, pointed at the patch that said "US Marine" and said, this, my three combat tours, Navy Comm with a 'V' and purple heart are good enough for me. I don't think I had laughed so hard.

Getting back to today, I get that Vance had a drinking problem. So do I on any given weekend (I semi jest). But he also got help and I believe he's been off the sauce. That's good enough for me.

The other thing I would point out, we've had SECDEFs with drinking problems, adulterers, and one committed suicide. It's easy enough to find. So to single him out because of this is politics.

I will add Hegseth pushed this out a couple days ago: Secretary Hegseth's Message to the Force

If I wasn't an old, washed-up, out-of-shape, cancer-ridden sack of goo, I would join.

 

[Marauder06]

I would work for Hegseth, if asked. I would have worked for SEC Austin, if asked. I voted for Trump and I support the direction his administration is taking America. But I believe that putting America first means putting my preferences second, and will do the best I can in whatever job I have as long as I'm in the government. If the Democrats take back the White House next election cycle, which right now I think is extremely unlikely, I would work for whomever they install as SECDEF. I want our country to be successful.

 

[TLDR20]

Damnit, I knew this scenario sounded familiar. Suddenly this 2017 @Marauder06 case study resonates different!

Case Study: Tabs and Tyrants​

I should add, in classic case study fashion, this story began in 2017 and was not wrapped up until 2020. (He was busy!)

When Second Lieutenant Scott Faith arrived at the battalion headquarters of First Battalion, First Brigade, 101st Airborne Division, he carried a folder with his medical and dental records, his inprocessing checklist, and ten copies of his orders. He also carried with him the weight of something he had never experienced before: failure.

Up to this point, Faith had been relatively successful in the things he thought were important in life. He got good grades in high school, coasted through college and ROTC, and got he wanted when it came to commissioning and his Army branch. He never lacked for friends… or girlfriends for that matter. It seemed that he was winning in every aspect of his life. But then, something happened. More specifically, “Ranger School” happened.

Ranger School would be tough, he knew, but it never occurred to him that he wouldn’t come out the other side “tabbed.” Yet here he was, at his first unit, a failure. A non-tabbed Infantry officer. A “tabless bitch.” At the Infantry Officers Basic Course, he was constantly reminded that this was literally the worst thing that could happen to a young lieutenant. “Better to catch a DUI charge en route than to show up at your first unit without a tab,” one of the noncommissioned officers trainers at the Basic Course told him. And Faith believed him. Still believed him. Ever since he got to Fort Campbell, he felt people were watching him, judging him. Because they probably were.

Difference is Mara’s case study officer probably wasn’t a career infantry officer, and from the first pages I read prioritized leading men. As was pointed out in that thread, the unwritten rule is tabs.

 

[TLDR20]

lol

Not at all brother, I'm not emotional about it. I just think there are far better things we can focus on when it comes to shortcomings of our political class than this.

I mean, long before he was SECDEF he accidentally hit an acquaintance of mine with a mis-thrown hatchet. This makes him clearly disqualified to be SECDEF based on hand-eye coordination alone. ;)

Then again maybe if he had earned his Ranger Tab he would have acquired better axe-throwing skills...

I am in agreement with you. I was mostly just trying to bring some military banter to what I’ve considered an absurd discussion about this guy. He is woefully unqualified for the position.

Of course there are many tremendous officers without Ranger tabs. Bravery, moral courage, and many other things have nothing to do with what is on someone’s left shoulder.

ETA: most of the contrarian statements I’ve seen focus on his tattoos and stuff, meanwhile he has led two non profits into the ground, and that is the sum of his organizational leadership above a platoon level. Being a Fox News host is not a good preparatory position for being SecDef. Again I sincerely hope I am wrong.