Two Dallas PD officers shot at protest

To give you an idea of just how acute the need for mental care is, we need to go back in time. In the'30s, '40s, '50s & '60s there were state run mental health hospitals. To give you an example of what kind of numbers we are talking about, think back to Jack Nicholson, and Nurse Ratchett in the movie, "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest". That was filmed at Pilgrim State Hospital on Long Island NY. The patient population was right around 6,000 patients who had bed space in that hospital, and just a part of the New York State Department of Mental Health. My home town had a similar NYSDMH with an average bed count of 2,500. There were several other DMH facilities throughout NY State. Most states had similar facilities, it was the state of the art at the time.

These facilities were all self sustaining, and required nothing from the cities they were near. They had their own farms, my dad ran a 3,000 plus acre farm that fed the patients, and staff. They had their own cows, pigs, beef cattle, laundries, carpenters, mattress shop, bakeries, orchards, quarters for MD's, Nurses, Attendants, power plants, police/fire Dept, Nursing Schools, Recreation Dept, Bowling alleys, indoor , swimming pools, auditoriums...and so on. Some patients were locked inside the hospital 24/7 because they were too unstable to let outside; they were seen an threats to themselves and others. Many patients were allowed to be out on the hospital grounds, and they were inside at night. The hospital grounds covered thousands of acres of land, and hundreds of buildings.

In the late 50's and early 60's health care was changed with the advent of tranquilizer meds like Thorazine, Mellaril, Stelazine, and a few others. These meds allowed for patients who were stable enough to actually work, supervised, on the farm, bakery, and other facility shops. There were patients who needed 24/7 attention and could not care for themselves, and they were pretty much warehoused at the hospitals. Still others were simply too violent to be allowed outside of locked doors. The trend, however was to get as many patients out of locked wards, and cost less to care for. Politicians, and "citizens groups" were appalled that patients were learning to farm, work in a laundry, or bakery, etc.,etc. One of the early problems was, that if the patients left to manage for themselves, most were noncompliant with their meds, and would backslide to needing inside care for a few weeks. That still happens today, everyday. The bottom line here is that these were patients of the DMH, and did not interface the locals, or the police. The cities near these hospitals were largely unaware of the number of patients that were being treated.

Jump ahead to today. The percentage of patients requiring mental health care, or have significant mental health issues, are pretty much the same. With the advent of more, and newer psychotropic drugs, fewer beds are thought to be needed than 40-50 years ago. Today the percentage of beds available for inpatient mental health care needs, do not match the number of patients needing them. The bulk of the mental health care is outpatient, on what is really a skeleton crew of mental health workers. The states are not spending the money needed to house the patients needing inpatient hospital beds; they just are not there. The last time I was home that 2,500 bed facility was down to one building to provide bed space for 50 mentally ill patients. That is down from around 12 buildings.

Today, when a patient stops taking his meds for too long, he winds up in jail because of his behavior. That means LEOs to arrest, incarcerate and "care" for the mentally ill. To place someone in a locked mental health facility requires a court order, and it expires at the 72 hour mark. Many of the psychoactive meds we have today, can take up to a week to see the full clinical effects. Judges are reluctant to keep people behind locked doors because of the loss of liberties to the mentally ill. That said, three days after arrest, the person is back on the streets, with a pocket full of meds. They trade the meds for alcohol, and the cycle begins all over again. If you want to reduce the LEO's workload, start paying for treatment of the communities mentally ill. It will create jobs, and get people the care they need. Some how all of the great political health care program have ignored the mental health issue. It requires money, attention to detail, and people to care for people; not bitch about them. For me this is :wall::wall::wall:.
 
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To give you an idea of just how acute the need for mental care is, we need to go back in time. In the'30s, '40s, '50s & '60s there were state run mental health hospitals. To give you an example of what kind of numbers we are talking about, think back to Jack Nicholson, and Nurse Ratchett in the movie, "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest". That was filmed at Pilgrim State Hospital on Long Island NY. The patient population was right around 6,000 patients who had bed space in that hospital, and just a part of the New York State Department of Mental Health. My home town had a similar NYSDMH with an average bed count of 2,500. There were several other DMH facilities throughout NY State. Most states had similar facilities, it was the state of the art at the time.

These facilities were all self sustaining, and required nothing from the cities they were near. They had their own farms, my dad ran a 3,000 plus acre farm that fed the patients, and staff. They had their own cows, pigs, beef cattle, laundries, carpenters, mattress shop, bakeries, orchards, quarters for MD's, Nurses, Attendants, power plants, police/fire Dept, Nursing Schools, Recreation Dept, Bowling alleys, indoor , swimming pools, auditoriums...and so on. Some patients were locked inside the hospital 24/7 because they were too unstable to let outside; they were seen an threats to themselves and others. Many patients were allowed to be out on the hospital grounds, and they were inside at night. The hospital grounds covered thousands of acres of land, and hundreds of buildings.

In the late 50's and early 60's health care was changed with the advent of tranquilizer meds like Thorazine, Mellaril, Stelazine, and a few others. These meds allowed for patients who were stable enough to actually work on the farm, bakery, and other facility shops. There were patients who needed 24/7 attention and could not care for themselves, and they were pretty much warehoused at the hospitals. Still others were simply too violent to be allowed outside of locked doors. The trend, however was to get as many patients out of locked wards, and cost less to care for. Politicians, and "citizens groups" were appalled that patients were learning to farm, work in a laundry, or bakery, etc.,etc. One of the early problems was, that if the patients left to manage for themselves, most were noncompliant with their meds, and would backslide to needing inside care for a few weeks. That still happens today, everyday. The bottom line here is that these were patients of the DMH, and did not interface the locals, or the police. The cities near these hospitals were largely unaware of the number of patients that were being treated.

Jump ahead to today. The percentage of patients requiring mental health care, or have significant mental health issues, are pretty much the same. With the advent of more, and newer psychotropic drugs, fewer beds are thought to be needed than 40-50 years ago. Today the percentage of beds available for inpatient mental health care needs, do not match the number of patients needing them. The bulk of the mental health care is outpatient, on what is really a skeleton crew of mental health workers. The states are not spending the money needed to house the patients needing inpatient hospital beds; they just are not there. The last time I was home that 2,500 bed facility was down to one building to provide bed space for 50 mentally ill patients. That is down from around 12 buildings.

Today, when a patient stops taking his meds for too long, he winds up in jail because of his behavior. That means LOEs to arrest, incarcerate and "care" for the mentally ill. To place someone in a locked mental health facility requires a court order, and it expires at the 72 hour mark. Many of the psychoactive meds we have today, can take up to a week to see the full clinical effects. Judges are reluctant to keep people behind locked doors because of the loss of liberties to the mentally ill. That said, three days after arrest, the person is back on the streets, with a pocket full of meds. They trade the meds for alcohol, and the cycle begins all over again. If you want to reduce the LOE's workload, start paying for treatment of the communities mentally ill. It will create jobs, and get people the care they need. Some how all of the great political health care program have ignored the mental health issue. It requires money, attention to detail, and people to care for people; not bitch about them. For me this is :wall::wall::wall:.
Incredibly well-said. And you can thank Reagan for being the catalyst for this mess: Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness
 
To add to Red Flags statement....In Texas, law enforcement can take a person into custody for a mental evaluation if they pose a danger to himself or others....threatening suicide...etc, no warrant or order needed, just an affidavit from the officer. Many years ago several counties created LEO mental health units that were trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed / mental health persons and would respond to incidents....of course as time goes by, funding goes away....not many of these units left.

Another issue local law enforcement has to deal with....knowing the mental health doc doing the review would punt them out at the end of the clock.
 
Incredibly well-said. And you can thank Reagan for being the catalyst for this mess: Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness

The ground work for this predated Reagan by quite a bit. Think Medicare, Medicade and LBJ's Great Society. In early '69, NY State's Gov was Rockefeller. He had spent the money he was sure he was going to get on a "Transportation Bond". The voters nixed the Bond Issue, and they could not pay the staff at some of the State Hospitals. Patients were moved from the NYC area to Upstate NY where they could still afford to pay the employees. There was talk of NY State Troopers actually inside the hospitals to help out. The families of patients were being phoned and pleaded with to take their family members home from the hospital for a few weeks. Many of them did not come back to the hospitals; and the domino effect had begun.
 
In high school my psych class took a tour of a nearby mental health institution. Either they should have a LOT more money or they should be shuttered, leveled, and the earth salted. No human being should live like that. I'm sure there are others in far better condition, but that place was nightmare fuel and the State of FL saw nothing wrong.
 
To add to Red Flags statement....In Texas, law enforcement can take a person into custody for a mental evaluation if they pose a danger to himself or others....threatening suicide...etc, no warrant or order needed, just an affidavit from the officer. Many years ago several counties created LEO mental health units that were trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed / mental health persons and would respond to incidents....of course as time goes by, funding goes away....not many of these units left.

Another issue local law enforcement has to deal with....knowing the mental health doc doing the review would punt them out at the end of the clock.
The same is true in Florida in what is known as a Baker Act. Florida has a similar act for substance abuse known as a Marchman Act. In both cases the receiving facility has 72 hours with which to evaluate the patient to be committed or released. Unfortunately, many receiving facilities would release them within 24 hours instead of holding them for a proper evaluation. To be fair, sometimes the facilities were inundated with patients and had to turn them around quickly.

I don't know if Florida still has them, but they used to have similarly trained teams to deal with mental health related cases. They were known as Crisis Intervention Teams, and they worked in concert with the local mental health facilities to better provide services for mentally ill patients in lieu of criminal penalties.
 
The same is true in Florida in what is known as a Baker Act. Florida has a similar act for substance abuse known as a Marchman Act. In both cases the receiving facility has 72 hours with which to evaluate the patient to be committed or released. Unfortunately, many receiving facilities would release them within 24 hours instead of holding them for a proper evaluation. To be fair, sometimes the facilities were inundated with patients and had to turn them around quickly.

I don't know if Florida still has them, but they used to have similarly trained teams to deal with mental health related cases. They were known as Crisis Intervention Teams, and they worked in concert with the local mental health facilities to better provide services for mentally ill patients in lieu of criminal penalties.

They have CIT's at the PDs here in the Atlanta suburbs.

Personally, I think that institutionalizing would be a nightmare today. I believe that the use of medication in place of supervision is ridiculous, both for the mentally ill and for children (ritalin rather than parenting). That said, the legal climate is such that a return to wholesale institutionalizing of the mentally ill would result in a never ending series of lawsuits that we, the taxpayers, would have to pay for. Even if the institutions followed the same standards of care and conditions as medical hospitals, there would always be use of force issues, medication selection issues and such.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/u...e-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=2

Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings


But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.

“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.

The result contradicts the image of police shootings that many Americans hold after the killings (some captured on video) of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.; Tamir Rice in Cleveland; Walter Scott in South Carolina; Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, La.; and Philando Castile in Minnesota.
 
To add to Red Flags statement....In Texas, law enforcement can take a person into custody for a mental evaluation if they pose a danger to himself or others....threatening suicide...etc, no warrant or order needed, just an affidavit from the officer. Many years ago several counties created LEO mental health units that were trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed / mental health persons and would respond to incidents....of course as time goes by, funding goes away....not many of these units left.

Another issue local law enforcement has to deal with....knowing the mental health doc doing the review would punt them out at the end of the clock.

We can do the same, although here in the Commonwealth our authority is limited in terms of how much time you can be held against your will for mental health purposes. We can take a citizen against their will to a designated crisis response center, where the law requires that a psychiatrist evaluate them within two hours of arrival. The evaluation can take as long as the physician deems necessary, but at its conclusion the doc can decide that outpatient treatment is appropriate and release them. If they decide inpatient treatment is required and the patient refuses to sign in, then the first involuntary committal is for a period of 5 days, and the courts become involved to protect the patient's rights as well as society's vested interest in keeping dangerous folks off the streets. The police do not have the authority to commit someone for any longer than it takes the physician to complete their assessment.

We adopted the CIT concept here a few years ago. There's a weeklong training program that is required before you join CIT, and basically very few people were interested in delving into mental health that deeply. The Taser became the carrot; if you want to carry a Taser (and be issued a personal one) then you must volunteer for CIT. All mental health calls are supposed to go to CIT members--we're specifically identified in the CAD--but it doesn't always work that way.
 
We adopted the CIT concept here a few years ago. There's a weeklong training program that is required before you join CIT, and basically very few people were interested in delving into mental health that deeply. The Taser became the carrot; if you want to carry a Taser (and be issued a personal one) then you must volunteer for CIT. All mental health calls are supposed to go to CIT members--we're specifically identified in the CAD--but it doesn't always work that way.

I like it
 
We can do the same, although here in the Commonwealth our authority is limited in terms of how much time you can be held against your will for mental health purposes. We can take a citizen against their will to a designated crisis response center, where the law requires that a psychiatrist evaluate them within two hours of arrival. The evaluation can take as long as the physician deems necessary, but at its conclusion the doc can decide that outpatient treatment is appropriate and release them. If they decide inpatient treatment is required and the patient refuses to sign in, then the first involuntary committal is for a period of 5 days, and the courts become involved to protect the patient's rights as well as society's vested interest in keeping dangerous folks off the streets. The police do not have the authority to commit someone for any longer than it takes the physician to complete their assessment.

We adopted the CIT concept here a few years ago. There's a weeklong training program that is required before you join CIT, and basically very few people were interested in delving into mental health that deeply. The Taser became the carrot; if you want to carry a Taser (and be issued a personal one) then you must volunteer for CIT. All mental health calls are supposed to go to CIT members--we're specifically identified in the CAD--but it doesn't always work that way.

I like the five days, it gives the psych unit more time to evaluate, and verify the patient's history against employers and family.

Do you have any trouble with bed shortages?
 
I like the five days, it gives the psych unit more time to evaluate, and verify the patient's history against employers and family.

Do you have any trouble with bed shortages?

Not in the acute phase, but long-term care can sometimes be problematic. That said, and circling back to what you've said, not many people end up in long-term inpatient settings. There's a legal mechanism for it but here as elsewhere once their meds have reached therapeutic levels it's not unusual to discharge them. That does mitigate any problem with bed availability but often creates a revolving door into the system when the patient decides the side effects of the psych meds outweigh their benefit. And let's not forget, it's not always about avoiding the side effects, sometimes people just like the way they feel when they're symptomatic and so choose to stop taking their meds.
 
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