United States & Gun Control discussion.

[Diamondback 2/2]

Coming back onto full topic

• I believe the 2nd Amendment was created in part to act as a check against the government and its agents so they would not attempt to enrode the rest of our rights. Although it seems some of our rights have been chipped away the point I make is that the 2nd Amendment prevents a large wholesale shredding of the Constitution.
• Any new laws smell of a Nanny State to me. I don't need the government in my life any more than it already is.​
• I think the loophole of not conducting background checks at gun shows should be closed.​

It's not a loop hole, it is private party to private party sales. Much like if you and I lived in the same town, I have an AR15 I am wanting to sell and you want to buy it. I sell it to you on a bill of sale, you take possession of the rifle and go on your marry way. If you so choose to registor into your name that is up to you, if you choose not too, it is all legal. The bill of sale is only for my protection as the last registored owner of the firearm. I don't have to show it to LE or disclose who I sold the rifle too. However, if LE is investigating the firearm, I would use the bill of sale to prove I no longer owned the firearm (some people will not require a bill of sale, pretty stupid on there part).​

• Generally speaking thsoe in power such as a Hitler or a Stalin outlaw firearms as a means to assume, hold onto, or increase power over people.​

I agree with the rest of your post. However, private sales, is not illegal and I don't think it should be. It's kind of like asking a person who owns firearms to become a FFL to sell any of those firearms. If they want to require the new owner to registor the firearm then okay, I think that should be between the new owner and the law, but not me as the one selling the firearm. Kind of like selling a car, the last owner is not the one who switches the title or registration, the new owner is.

 

[8654Maine]

Coming back onto full topic

• I believe the 2nd Amendment was created in part to act as a check against the government and its agents so they would not attempt to enrode the rest of our rights. Although it seems some of our rights have been chipped away the point I make is that the 2nd Amendment prevents a large wholesale shredding of the Constitution.
• Any new laws smell of a Nanny State to me. I don't need the government in my life any more than it already is.
• I think the loophole of not conducting background checks at gun shows should be closed.
• Generally speaking thsoe in power such as a Hitler or a Stalin outlaw firearms as a means to assume, hold onto, or increase power over people.

Short and succinct.
Absolutely agree.

 

[JBS]

Forget Gun Control; New York Needs To Ban Subway Trains:

http://news.yahoo.com/woman-stumbles-falls-nyc-subway-tracks-dies-015953787.html

Yet Another victim stumbles, falls on NYC subway tracks, dies

NEW YORK (AP) — New York City police say a young woman stumbling around on a Manhattan subway platform not far from Times Square fell onto the tracks and was killed by a train.

The accident happened at around 5 a.m. on New Year's Day at the No. 2 line station on 34th Street and Seventh Avenue. That's one stop from where revelers gather in Times Square to see the ball drop.
Police say the victim was in her 20s. Her name wasn't immediately released.

Subway deaths are common in the city. Last year, according to a report in the Daily News, there was about a fatality a week.

That's an average of about 50 people killed per year- rivaling the number of children killed by assault rifle mass shootings in America in the past 20 years.

 

[PACMan]

Between 2010 and 2011 alone, China saw at least 7 school attacks, none using a gun, that left at least 21 dead and 90+ injured.

When you have societal issues or mental issues and there is will, there will alsways be a way.

Sadly, it's only a matter of time before one of these animals takes "inspiration" from some methods that have long plagued the Middle East.

Imagining the horror of someone strapping themselves with a suicide vest and walking into a crowded mall, theater, school, gov't facility..etc etc. You're exactly right though, it's not a matter of IF but WHEN is it going to happen.

 

[pardus]

Forget Gun Control; New York Needs To Ban Subway Trains:

http://news.yahoo.com/woman-stumbles-falls-nyc-subway-tracks-dies-015953787.html

Yet Another victim stumbles, falls on NYC subway tracks, dies


That's an average of about 50 people killed per year- rivaling the number of children killed by assault rifle mass shootings in America in the past 20 years.

The MTA was offered FREE glass walls and automatic opening doors for subway platforms in NYC, in exchange for free advertising. The MTA ignored it.
The head of the MTA is now running for mayor of NYC...

 

[AWP]

I'm not going to plow through all of the data, but crime in the US has declined by 15.5 percent since 1992. There wasn't a major acceleration with the passing of the AWB in 1994, trended up from 2004-2007, and then began to decline again. You could make an exceptionally weak argument that the passing of the AWB saw a reduction in crime and the repeal saw an increase...but that's laughable.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1

Here's 2011's data for murder victims from 2007-2011:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

and 2006-2010:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

Shotguns outnumbered rifles as murder weapons. Handguns were a clear "winner" here. Even if you factor in the "Unknown" weapons, knives and cutting instruments came in second place every single year. Rifles actually DECLINED during this period. along with other weapons. Percentage rates of murder victims by rifle:
2006 - 4.28
2007 - 3.04
2008 - 2.67
2009 - 2.55
2010 - 2.75
2011 - 2.55

So, yeah..."assault rifles" are a clear problem in our society and a threat to our safety.

Justifiable homicide by private citizens:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc....-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-15

Rifles were consistently at the bottom, percentage wise.

Violence commited with firearms, 2007-2011:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-7

Guns are almost always used in crimes, but we don't know how many crimes were stopped or the loss mitigated by an armed private citizen.

So...how does an assault weapons ban save lives?

 

[Totentanz]

The MTA was offered FREE glass walls and automatic opening doors for subway platforms in NYC, in exchange for free advertising. The MTA ignored it.
The head of the MTA is now running for mayor of NYC...

So your choice is between MTA and Bloomberg?

Hmmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche_and_Turd

 

[Totentanz]

I'm not going to plow through all of the data, but crime in the US has declined by 15.5 percent since 1992. There wasn't a major acceleration with the passing of the AWB in 1994, trended up from 2004-2007, and then began to decline again. You could make an exceptionally weak argument that the passing of the AWB saw a reduction in crime and the repeal saw an increase...but that's laughable.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1

Here's 2011's data for murder victims from 2007-2011:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

and 2006-2010:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

Shotguns outnumbered rifles as murder weapons. Handguns were a clear "winner" here. Even if you factor in the "Unknown" weapons, knives and cutting instruments came in second place every single year. Rifles actually DECLINED during this period. along with other weapons. Percentage rates of murder victims by rifle:
2006 - 4.28
2007 - 3.04
2008 - 2.67
2009 - 2.55
2010 - 2.75
2011 - 2.55

So, yeah..."assault rifles" are a clear problem in our society and a threat to our safety.

Justifiable homicide by private citizens:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc....-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-15

Rifles were consistently at the bottom, percentage wise.

Violence commited with firearms, 2007-2011:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-7

Guns are almost always used in crimes, but we don't know how many crimes were stopped or the loss mitigated by an armed private citizen.

So...how does an assault weapons ban save lives?

Let's not cloud the issue with facts...

 

[Marine0311]

Let's not cloud the issue with facts...

Facts of course confuse those who use emotion rather than logic. The only thing we who believe in gun rights should do is fight this anti-gun agenda with everything we have. There is no reasoning with them. I have tried many points of logic and all I get in return is "guns R bad blah blah blah". Any new AWB must fail and be defeated before they are signed into law. The focus needs to be on felons and those who are mentally unstable. There are common sense (technically making new laws by adding onto exsisting laws) rather than "new" laws.

 

[RetPara]

.... There is no reasoning with them. I have tried many points of logic and all I get in return is "guns R bad blah blah blah". ...

I don't discuss gun control with my daughter.

 

[8654Maine]

Made the mistake of entering a conversation at work. Thought one of the nurses (anti) was gonna have a coronary. "For the children" was her mantra.

 

[HOLLiS]

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/...ly-incorrect-truth-about-the-second-amendment

The Bill of Rights are for the individual citizen, they protect them from abuses of the state. The reaffirms that the 2nd Amendment is a individual right. As this film points out, the citizen should be on par with the military when it comes to equipment. It is not however on par. Just as the FED eliminated the balance of power between the states and the Feds in the Mid 1860's, the Feds has been usurping power from the citizens. Our political process was designed with a balance of power, for fear that with out it, our government would do what other governments have done in the past. It would become the all supreme power answerable only to itself. A balance of power preserves the notion of a government of the people.

The best defense of our freedom is knowledge. Maybe why our education system has been being hammered over the years. Look around the world the most uneducated countries are also the most oppressed countries.

 

[Blizzard]

Some more facts to further confuse the issue:

FIREARMS TUTORIAL
In the U.S. for 2010, there were 31,513 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 19,308; Homicide 11,015; Accident 600.

Of those 31K deaths, nearly 2/3rds were self inflicted (ie suicide). Will gun laws change that statistic in any meaningful way? No.

How does that compare?
FASTSTATS - Injuries
Mortality

All injury deaths
•Number of deaths: 177,154
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 57.7

Motor vehicle traffic deaths
•Number of deaths: 34,485
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.2
All poisoning deaths
•Number of deaths: 41,592
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.5

All firearm deaths
•Number of deaths: 31,347
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.2

Leading Causes of Death in the U.S.
•Heart disease: 599,413
•Cancer: 567,628
•Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
•Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
•Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
•Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
•Diabetes: 68,705
•Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
•Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
•Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909

The interesting thing is that many crime statistics show an overall decline and is near historical lows:
FBI: Violent crime rates in the US drop, approach historic lows - U.S. News

Violent crime rates in the U.S. are reaching historic lows, according to new FBI data released Monday.

Instances of murder declined overall by 1.9 percent from 2010 figures, while rape, robbery and aggravated assault declined by 4 percent nationwide, according to records from more than 14,000 law-enforcement agencies around the country...

According to FBI analysis, the homicide drop would mean that nearly 280 fewer Americans were murdered last year, which would be the lowest homicide death toll since the mid-1950s.

So, considering the information above, the focus on guns as the problem appears very much misplaced.

As further evidence to this and as a testament as to the effectiveness of a weapons ban, read the following WT article based on a report from the National Institute of Justice (NIJ):
Washington Times: NIJ Report - Ban on assault weapons didn’t reduce violence

“We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence...

...It is thus premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun violence. Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement"

One last piece of evidence to consider - homicide rates worldwide in 2010:

Sorted by Rate per 100,000

Sorted by actual count

Explore on your at:
UNdata | record view | Intentional homicide, number and rate per 100,000 population
(Note: I filtered by date - 2010, to make it managable; then sort by rate (descending), count (descending), and country)

What is the relationship between Russia and Brazil? How about Mexico and Pakistan? South Africa and Columbia? U.S. and Venezula?

All this seems to point to a greater underlying societal/mental health issue or perhaps a dark side of human nature. As our society grows and technology evolves, we are more connected and in tune to issues than we've ever been before. Thus, our visibilty/awareness of such violence is greater.

 

[Rapid]

Here's some further ammo to use against the anti-rifle crowd (no pun intended).

A 2004 critical review of research on firearms by a National Research Council panel also noted that academic studies of the assault weapon ban "did not reveal any clear impacts on gun violence" and noted "due to the fact that the relative rarity with which the banned guns were used in crime before the ban ... the maximum potential effect of the ban on gun violence outcomes would be very small...."

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=96

 

[Arrow 4]

I agree with the rest of your post. However, private sales, is not illegal and I don't think it should be. It's kind of like asking a person who owns firearms to become a FFL to sell any of those firearms. If they want to require the new owner to registor the firearm then okay, I think that should be between the new owner and the law, but not me as the one selling the firearm. Kind of like selling a car, the last owner is not the one who switches the title or registration, the new owner is.

I agree. The fact is that ATF was supposed to not keep permanent records of NCIC's checks, but have already been caught keeping them well past what the law allows. We should all be concerned when the govt. does not follow the law...or when they pick and choose what laws they will enforce such as some of the immigration laws. This gives them the opportunity to use political idealology to impose their will instead of using simply using existing laws. The Federal Govt. has already exempted it's self from too many laws, such as the case with labor laws, they have also given themselves their own benefit/medical/retirement packages that would make the richest CEO's envious. It's time they play by the same rules as the rest of the country.

 

[Rapid]

I don't think deciding who to sell to based on just a 'gut feeling' is very wise at all (only because there are always idiots who screw up, or others who can use it as a loophole). I think one should at least be responsible for requesting some form of basic background check from an individual who wants to buy your gun (at the buyer's expense, if there is any at all). Otherwise, nothing stops someone from just supplying a bunch of high-powered weapons to gang-bangers or drug dealers (and other people who shouldn't have access to them). And if they're caught, they can just say, "Oops, I didn't know." The killers might be the ones pulling the trigger, but, unless stolen, it was a seller who allowed those guns to get into their hands.

At the very least, I think people should keep a receipt and a copy of a simple background check, not only to prove that it's no longer their gun but also that they did their duty to check on who they were supplying. No registration with the police/government is required for this, and no one except people who are already exempt from ownership would be affected.

 

[Rapid]

Oh, and here are some more facts to 'cloud' the minds of the extreme, anti-gun people crowd. A lot of them seem to have a very short memory and are especially showing a negative bias towards rifles because they’re experiencing a 'recency effect' from the tragedy at Sandy Hook. I thought I'd personally collect and analyze some wider data on rifles in the U.S. and their association with rampage killers, and school/workplace killers.

I decided to go back as far as 1980, a third of a century, to be thorough enough while being contemporarily relevant. The statistics show that pistols and shotguns have consistently proven themselves far more deadly and popular over the entire period covered. Rifles, simply put, played a much smaller role in these killings. They were beaten in every single category.

"Luby's massacre" was the deadliest shooting rampage in American history (24 killed) until the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre (32 killed). Both were committed with handguns. Before that, the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre also saw 21 people die in an attack where the perp used a semi-automatic, 9mm Uzi (or in other words, a clunky pistol with a high cap mag - certainly not an actual submachinegun or even a rifle).

Let’s start the statistics with general rampage killers (this section does not include school massacres or workplace killings, which form their own categories below).

Total number of people killed across all weapon types: 198

Total number of people killed by shotguns or pistol-type weapons: 142
Total number of people killed by semi-auto rifles: 56

Average number of deaths in sprees where shotguns or pistol-type weapons were used: 13.2

Average number of deaths in sprees where semi-auto rifles were used: 7

Highest number of deaths in sprees where shotguns or pistol-type weapons were used: 24

Highest number of deaths in sprees where semi-auto rifles were used: 12


Full list of massacres and details follow:

Luby's massacre (1991). 24 dead, pistols.

San Ysidro McDonald's massacre (1984). 21 killed, semi-automatic 9mm Uzi (or in other words, a clunky pistol with a high cap mag - certainly not an actual submachinegun or even a rifle).

Binghamton shootings (2009). 14 killed, pistols.

The Batman cinema massacre in Aurora (2012). 12 killed, semi-auto rifle.

GMAC massacre (1990). 9 killed, M1 rifle.

101 California Street shootings (1993). 9 killed, pistols.

Westroads Mall shooting (2007). 8 killed, AKM rifle.

Carl Robert Brown (1982). 8 killed, shotgun.

Carthage nursing home (2009). 8 killed, shotgun & pistols.

Seal Beach shooting (2011). 8 killed, pistols.

Larry Gene Ashbrook (1999). 7 killed, pistols.

Terry Ratzmann (2005). 7 killed, pistols.

Colin Ferguson (1993). 6 killed, pistol.

Jared Lee Loughner (2011). 6 killed, pistol.

McCarthy, Alaska - Louis D. Hastings (1983). 6 killed, semi-auto .223 rifle.

Lynwood Drake (1992). 6 killed, pistols & shotgun.

Chai Vang (2004). 6 killed, 7.62 rifle.

Capitol Hill massacre (2006). 7 killed, shotgun & pistol.

Crandon, Wisconsin shooting (2007). 7 killed, semi-auto .223 rifle.

Kirkwood City Council shooting (2008). 7 killed, pistols.

North Hills, Raleigh, shooting (1972). 3 killed, semi-auto rifle.

IHOP shooting (2011). 5 killed, semi-auto AK-type rifle.

Collier Township shooting (2009). 4 dead, pistols.


---

Next: school shooters.

Total number of people killed across all weapon types: 116

Total number of people killed by shotguns or pistol-type weapons: 72
Total number of people killed by semi-auto rifles: 44 (half accounted by Sandy Hook alone)

Average number of deaths in sprees where shotguns or pistol-type weapons were used: 9

Average number of deaths in sprees where semi-auto rifles were used: 8.8 (3.4 without Sandy Hook)

Highest number of deaths in sprees where shotguns or pistol-type weapons were used: 32

Highest number of deaths in sprees where semi-auto rifles were used: 27 (6 without Sandy Hook)


Full list of massacres and details follow:

V-Tech massacre (2007). 32 killed, pistols.

Sandy Hook (2012). 27 killed, mostly with .223 semi-auto rifle.

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold – Columbine (1999). 8 killed, pistol-carbine & shotgun.

Jeff Weise (2005). 9 killed, pistols & shotgun.

Oikos University shooting (2012). 7 killed, pistol.

Cleveland School massacre (1989). 6 killed, semi-auto rifle.

Northern Illinois University shooting (2008). 5 killed, shotgun & pistols.

Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden (1998). 5 killed, semi-auto rifles.

Charles Carl Roberts (2006). 5 killed, pistol, shotgun & bolt-action rifle.

Kip Kinkel (1998). 4 killed, semi-auto rifle.

Lindhurst High School shooting (1992). 4 killed, shotgun.

Charles Andrew Williams (1986). 2 killed, pistol.

Tyrone Mitchell (1984). 2 killed, semi-auto .223 rifle.

---


Finally: civilian workplace rampages.

Total number of people killed across all weapon types: 88

Total number of people killed by shotguns or pistol-type weapons: 67
Total number of people killed by semi-auto rifles: 21

Average number of deaths in sprees where shotguns or pistol-type weapons were used: 8.4

Average number of deaths in sprees where semi-auto rifles were used: 7

Highest number of deaths in sprees where shotguns or pistol-type weapons were used: 14

Highest number of deaths in sprees where semi-auto rifles were used: 8


Full list of massacres and details follow:

Patrick Sherrill (1986). 14 killed, pistols.

Mark O. Barton (1999). 12 killed, pistols.

Standard Gravure shooting (1989). 8 killed, semi-auto AK-type rifle.

Hartford Distributors shooting (2010). 8 killed, pistols.

Richard Farley. 7 killed (1988), shotgun & pistols.

Xerox murders (1999). 7 killed, pistol.

Wakefield massacre (2000). 7 killed, semi-auto AK-type rifle, shotgun, pistol.

Jennifer San Marco (2006). 7 killed, pistol.

Lockheed Martin shooting (2003). 6 killed, shotgun.

John Felton Parish (1982). 6 killed, M1 carbine.

Minneapolis workplace shooting (2012). 6 killed, pistol.

---







And that brings us to a wrap. All the data used here is verifiable through various public sources. As usual, you can see that the extreme anti-gun crowd is so rabid that they don’t realize that they’re barking up the wrong tree. As these statistics show, banning rifles would do pretty much nothing. Pistols and shotguns have proven to be just as deadly, and, actually, have consistently shown themselves to have been responsible for more deaths than rifles in all categories (both in averages and in max figures) over the past 33 years.

Even if a rifle ban stopped one person from legally obtaining a rifle, and somehow they weren’t able to get one illegally, they would just move to pistols or shotguns instead… and their actions would be just as deadly, as history shows. I think a lot of this can be explained by something I posted a while ago:

These shooters are mostly looking for a target where the response time will be at least a few minutes+. Does it really matter if they've got an assault rifle or a pistol? 30 round mags or 7 round ones? It might take a bit longer to reload, but it won't really matter when they've got plenty of time to kill dozens of people before the police even arrive. A pistol might not have as much firepower, but again, it doesn't matter as much if they're unopposed. They can just fire off a few more rounds per target, and they'll still get the job done. Just pack more ammo and magazines.

Rifles, evidently, don't seem to change the game that much for these shooters because the main advantage of a rifle is its firepower in combat. Yet most of these cowards shoot themselves before the police even arrive or can stop them. What they're doing is more like shooting fish in a barrel, so it doesn't matter that much if it's with a rifle or a pistol (you have to be careful with statistics, though these ones all point to a clear answer).

Finally, I think it's important for me to acknowledge all the victims involved in the shootings I've named. I don't want to be part of a culture where people are more interested in the killers/killing sprees than the victims themselves, so let me say 'rest in peace' to all those who were caught up in these tragedies.

 

[policemedic]

My latest missive to the folks in Washington:

As an active police sergeant with more than twenty years of service and a
United States Army veteran I have taken an oath to protect and defend the
Constitution of the United States several times. In your capacity as an
elected representative--my voice in Washington--you have also taken a
similar oath.


I now urge you to honor that oath, and support the Second Amendment by
refusing to support any new gun laws. Specifically, I believe you should
ardently resist any attempt by Dianne Feinstein to revive an 'assault'
weapons ban. This concept has been shown to be a failure, and as an
experienced law enforcement officer I can attest to the fact that Dianne
Feinstein's poorly conceived and unconstitutional legislation will do
virtually nothing to make police officers or anyone else safer.

Needless to say, my vote is contingent on your support of the 2nd
Amendment, as demonstrated by your refusal to support any new 'assault'
weapons ban.
Sincerely,
Policemedic xoxoxox

 

[Rapid]

More people need to see some of the statistics behind these mass murders. Then they'll realize that no amount of banning certain features, or rifles altogether, will limit these tragedies. The rifle has a really bad image right now, and people need to be set straight. It's groups like the NRA who should be making these arguments. Are there actually any major, pro-gun groups who are using modern, forward-thinking rhetoric to get through to the population? The NRA's stance doesn't really sway people who are undecided on the issue. I mean, the NRA is great, but it represents people who are already very pro-gun. I think one of the biggest dangers to gun ownership is this vacuum of any kind of major group who can get through to the uninformed, undecided people with simple facts and strong arguments (can't argue with that)... yet the anti-gun movement is very good at getting through to many of those people (by using bullshit). Seems like a pretty big danger to me.

 

[Marauder06]

More people need to see some of the statistics behind these mass murders. Then they'll realize that no amount of banning certain features, or rifles altogether, will limit these tragedies. ...

But therein lies the trap. They'll say, "yes, your right, and your own statistics show that that the only way to prevent this type of gun crime is to ban all private gun ownership, which is where they ultimately want to take it. So don't fall for it; instead of showing statistics that show only different types of gun crimes, which will only lead even a reasonable person to conclude that "all guns are bad," we need to frame the discussion by showing 1) how guns help prevent crime and 2) what weapons, accidents, and medical conditions kill more people every year than guns, and 3) (probably should be #1) explain why the individual right to keep and bear arms is so important both now and in the long term.

We need to get away from discussions about certain features of weapons, and why some guns are not as bad as others, and concentrate on the reasons people need to have guns, and are allowed to have guns in the first place.