Whats your backup plan?

[amlove21]

Ok- noted. I am going to file this under 'you don't know what you don't know'. I'll even be willing to ignore the fact that you tried to tell me (the guy that started the thread) what the intent of the thread is.

If you fail out of Indoctrination and you enter the reclass process- it doesn't matter if you hold an EMT cert at all. Just the same as if you were an accomplished mechanic before your AF career but came in hoping to be anything other than a mechanic and failed out of the pipeline- if we don't need mechanics, we don't make mechanics. If the medical jobs (by the way, the EMT service in the AF is nothing like civilian world. The number of jobs where a Basic cert is used is very, very small). The best you could hope for your EMT cert is working a desk at family practice, or being a technician at another shop in the hospital. If those jobs don't need people, you won't go there. Also, if Security Forces or Maintenance need more people than the med group do? Your basic EMT cert means nothing. It's not logical, it seems like it's not the best practice, I get it. However, that's what it is.

If you want a health career field in the AF, well, then you should talk to a recruiter about a job where that applies. However, if you decide that you want to be a PJ, try, and fail- well, they're going to align you to the career field that needs you at that time, regardless of what civilian cert you may or may not possess at that time. You could, in this scenario, be a Security Forces Airman with an Basic EMT cert. Or an airplane mechanic with an EMT cert.

There is a distinct possibility that no, you will not be put into a 'health' career field where your cert means anything.

I'll level a question at you- let's say you know the entire scenario. You look forward, and you know 100% that you fail out of Indoc, and that you wouldn't be aligned to a 'health' service after reclass.

Would you still be willing to enlist in the AF knowing these things? What is your true motivation- to be given the job of your choice, and if you if you fail out (which BY THE WAY YOU WILL STATISTICALLY FAIL OUT) and if that doesn't work we should try to get you your second choice? Why?

Let me share the true intent of this thread- I want to see who really wants to serve, in any capacity. I want willing volunteers- and it's ok if those volunteers fail to meet our special operations standard, as long as they want to serve the US admirably, because that shot at indoctrination is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT. It is more important to me to get people in the military that want to serve even if it means not getting what they want when they want it.

You try and fail? Forgive me for saying, but I don't owe you shit.

I want transparency, I want you to understand that the first stepping stone for your process is "I want to be in the military, specifically the Air Force, because I want to serve my country, no matter what that looks like."

To finish this up- No, getting an EMT cert will hold no bearing on your backup plan if you fail the pipeline.

 

[Gingerfish]

Rgr that wasn't trying to be offensive nor insult your intelligence. Please excuse my ignorance , and thank you for your guidance .

 

[amlove21]

Rgr that wasn't trying to be offensive nor insult your intelligence. Please excuse my ignorance , and thank you for your guidance .

No worries. Press on.

 

[JordanL]

It's been awhile since anyone has posted in this thread but, as a new member, scrolling through the forum for topics I found this one to resonate with me. I haven't read the entire thing but what I have read has been very relevant to me.

When I say relevant to me I mean this: I originally joined the Air Force to be a Pararescueman back in 2012 and looking back, I had no backup plan. Like so many before me, I thought to myself "There's no way I'll quit" and I foolishly wasn't planning for possibly not making the cut physically. As it turns out I failed the 500m freestyle event at the end of Dev Course (not even true indoc yet) and was fortunate enough to be given a setback when I asked. I went through the newly appointed Battle Program and on my second team I didn't measure up again on the same event with the same time (10:15, which is pretty slow when you look at high school swimmers competitive times) I, along with 6 others, asked for ANOTHER setback but we were not given one this time and understandably so. We couldn't make it through a 2 week prep course. The cadre, whom I still remember to this day, gave us all a recommendation to come back and gave us a pep talk about dedication and persistence. I was thankful for the recommendation but crushed.

I spent and am still spending time contemplating my failure and at this point in my life, I'm thankful for the failure. I had never failed anything I genuinely cared about (at the time of joining, there wasn't much I cared about at all) failing my dream was devastating for me. It took me a long time to realize that this failure was an important lesson I needed to learn. I've spent time serving in a capacity that doesn't quite line up with my dream but I'm still thankful I can serve at all and that mentality took me awhile to learn as well.

So as far as my backup plan goes, to my understanding I'll most likely get sent back to my current AFSC (medical stuff) if I don't make the cut again and that's ok with me. Even if not I'm prepared to cook or check ID's or whatever is asked of me. I've learned to try and be the best I can in whatever capacity I can even if it isn't what I want. Fortunately, the Air Force will let me try again... as many times as I want (...I think) and I will keep on trying until hopefully one day I can realize the dream.

To sum up, I think living the backup plan that I had foolishly not planned for gave me an appreciation for serving I wouldn't have had had I made it my first try. Although, it would have been so much easier if I had just planned for it the first time. Lesson learned!

 

[Red Flag 1]

It's been awhile since anyone has posted in this thread but, as a new member, scrolling through the forum for topics I found this one to resonate with me. I haven't read the entire thing but what I have read has been very relevant to me.

When I say relevant to me I mean this: I originally joined the Air Force to be a Pararescueman back in 2012 and looking back, I had no backup plan. Like so many before me, I thought to myself "There's no way I'll quit" and I foolishly wasn't planning for possibly not making the cut physically. As it turns out I failed the 500m freestyle event at the end of Dev Course (not even true indoc yet) and was fortunate enough to be given a setback when I asked. I went through the newly appointed Battle Program and on my second team I didn't measure up again on the same event with the same time (10:15, which is pretty slow when you look at high school swimmers competitive times) I, along with 6 others, asked for ANOTHER setback but we were not given one this time and understandably so. We couldn't make it through a 2 week prep course. The cadre, whom I still remember to this day, gave us all a recommendation to come back and gave us a pep talk about dedication and persistence. I was thankful for the recommendation but crushed.

I spent and am still spending time contemplating my failure and at this point in my life, I'm thankful for the failure. I had never failed anything I genuinely cared about (at the time of joining, there wasn't much I cared about at all) failing my dream was devastating for me. It took me a long time to realize that this failure was an important lesson I needed to learn. I've spent time serving in a capacity that doesn't quite line up with my dream but I'm still thankful I can serve at all and that mentality took me awhile to learn as well.

So as far as my backup plan goes, to my understanding I'll most likely get sent back to my current AFSC (medical stuff) if I don't make the cut again and that's ok with me. Even if not I'm prepared to cook or check ID's or whatever is asked of me. I've learned to try and be the best I can in whatever capacity I can even if it isn't what I want. Fortunately, the Air Force will let me try again... as many times as I want (...I think) and I will keep on trying until hopefully one day I can realize the dream.

To sum up, I think living the backup plan that I had foolishly not planned for gave me an appreciation for serving I wouldn't have had had I made it my first try. Although, it would have been so much easier if I had just planned for it the first time. Lesson learned!

I like that you are willing to do whatever it is the USAF asks of you. You in a site that has quite a bit of PJ information, from first hand knowledge. What ever it is the USAF asks of you right now, be the best there can be at that job. You will have time to prep for your next eval, and we do like to see our members reach their SOF goal.

I wish you the best in your USAF career. Read everything that you can, and follow instructions to the letter.

 

[JordanL]

Thank you sir, I found the Pararescue mentor group and a good number of other topics with great information. Again, thank you for having me here at SS.

 

[WasNeverHere]

I am even more interested in the "Considering studies on youth population and military recruitment claim “evidence suggests that cardiorespiratory endurance in young men has declined by approximately 10 percent since 1966” statement.

Coming from a pre-PC, pre-gaming, pre-internet generation, I would've guessed the decline was much steeper. When I was a kid, we ran, jumped, played in the dirt, and rode bikes for several miles per day. There may have been 1 fat kid in any given class room. Today it seems half the kids are fat (or what would've been considered fat 40 years ago).

To me, the Army was running in boots, playing in the dirt, and carrying heavy stuff around, sometimes all at the same time. Hardest thing I encountered in the Army was the monotony and tedium of my permanent duty station.

There does seem to be a a split among the youth, though, with part of them dwelling in their parents' basement, playing video games, and glutting on Cheetos, while their arteries calcify; there is a portion, though, that is extreme athlete fit, with PhD level knowledge of physiology and nutrition. I suspect most of your current operator community comes from the latter group.

 

[amlove21]

Coming from a pre-PC, pre-gaming, pre-internet generation, I would've guessed the decline was much steeper. When I was a kid, we ran, jumped, played in the dirt, and rode bikes for several miles per day. There may have been 1 fat kid in any given class room. Today it seems half the kids are fat (or what would've been considered fat 40 years ago).

To me, the Army was running in boots, playing in the dirt, and carrying heavy stuff around, sometimes all at the same time. Hardest thing I encountered in the Army was the monotony and tedium of my permanent duty station.

There does seem to be a a split among the youth, though, with part of them dwelling in their parents' basement, playing video games, and glutting on Cheetos, while their arteries calcify; there is a portion, though, that is extreme athlete fit, with PhD level knowledge of physiology and nutrition. I suspect most of your current operator community comes from the latter group.

 

[Matt9339]

This is a very informative post, coming from my own perspective, I am a prior service vet, older now than most I will be attempting this path with. What I know I do offer is 12 years of experience and multiple combat deployments. I know I am mentally tough, I've been through some tough training and pushed past limits, to caviat I also know that anything can happen, and have many friends where injuries killed their hopes and dreams. I plan to physically prepare the best I can, keep my mind right, and if it isn't in the cards because of whatever freak incident happens I'll regroup and address what my options are at the time. What I have learned in life is control what is in your power and deal with the uncontrollable as it comes.

 

[Gunz]

This is a very informative post, coming from my own perspective, I am a prior service vet, older now than most I will be attempting this path with. What I know I do offer is 12 years of experience and multiple combat deployments. I know I am mentally tough, I've been through some tough training and pushed past limits, to caviat I also know that anything can happen, and have many friends where injuries killed their hopes and dreams. I plan to physically prepare the best I can, keep my mind right, and if it isn't in the cards because of whatever freak incident happens I'll regroup and address what my options are at the time. What I have learned in life is control what is in your power and deal with the uncontrollable as it comes.

That's all you can do. There's always that element of luck involved. Like Stan Musial said: "You're one injury away from the end of your career." It applies to athletes and warriors.

 

[suaveflooder]

I'm new here, but I don't have one. I have always been told that if I am serious about special operations, not to have a backup. This is coming from a guy who got injured in his third day in hell week at BUDs when he had a paddle hit him between the legs. He woke up on suicide watch and with a catheter. He told me he wouldn't do a thing different. He aged out and could not get a waiver after this incident.

 

[suaveflooder]

The second part of your post was unneeded, yea? Your backup plan is to just be an infantry soldier, and thats enough. I have zero issue with that.

And again, let's stop with the "I'd rather die that quit" analogy. No, you wouldn't choose death over stopping a training iteration, and it takes away from those that actually did die doing their job. Let's keep the drama to a minimum and focus on the topic- what is the backup plan if you don't make it through your selection process or pipeline?

This is not completely accurate, and if you are still active, I will hopefully be meeting you in the next two years. I'm in the same boat. I'll "drown" and trust in the cadre to pull me out, then do it again. The idea is that is not to quit. If I'm not willing to risk my life "trying", why would I do it in the real situation? Different, and I understand, but I get where the "I'll die or make it" comes from. People die in training. It's the dangers of the job and dangers of the training. I personally have nothing to lose, and I'm willing to do I need to do to get through.

 

[TLDR20]

This is not completely accurate, and if you are still active, I will hopefully be meeting you in the next two years. I'm in the same boat. I'll "drown" and trust in the cadre to pull me out, then do it again. The idea is that is not to quit. If I'm not willing to risk my life "trying", why would I do it in the real situation? Different, and I understand, but I get where the "I'll die or make it" comes from. People die in training. It's the dangers of the job and dangers of the training. I personally have nothing to lose, and I'm willing to do I need to do to get through.

First off, @amlove is a cadre at the schoolhouse. I think he may realize that 90% of the guys think they would rather die than quit. But then that same 90% quits... you are no different than them.

Secondly I don't think I want some idiot on my team who doesn't know his own limitations and puts himself in a position to die rather than say, " this may not be the right time." To me that shows a lack of maturity and judgement.

 

[Teufel]

90% of the guys think they would rather die than quit. But then that same 90% quits... you are no different than them

No one is a quitter...until they are!

 

[amlove21]

This is not completely accurate, and if you are still active, I will hopefully be meeting you in the next two years. I'm in the same boat. I'll "drown" and trust in the cadre to pull me out, then do it again. The idea is that is not to quit. If I'm not willing to risk my life "trying", why would I do it in the real situation? Different, and I understand, but I get where the "I'll die or make it" comes from. People die in training. It's the dangers of the job and dangers of the training. I personally have nothing to lose, and I'm willing to do I need to do to get through.

You had me at 'this isn't completely accurate.'

I'm basing my opinion off of a couple thousand points of student data, a couple hundred psychological evaluations and exit interviews I've been a part of and an adult life dedicated to the job. Oh, and I have actually done it too, so there's that.

Whatever attitude you need to get you through, go for it. If you really wil die in training doing underwaters- which is a dumb thing to say, if your end goal is to be a PJ but whatever- and that somehow motivates you to study in paramedic later in the pipeline, ok. 'I'd rather die than not study cardiology!!!'

You're the type of dude in my jiu jitsu that gets hurt because he insists the other guy 'didn't really have the choke' and you make us put you to sleep cause you won't tap.

There's 'never quit' then there's 'you're not right for this and you need to stop endangering yourself with your bravado.'

You're sounding a lot like the latter. So, 35 year old dude with nothing to lose, when you quite possibly fail, what's your backup plan? Because my friends at Indoc won't let you keep trying to die, they'll remove you from training and your actions will do the quitting your warrior brain 'just won't let you' do.

 

[Totentanz]

Just going to throw this out there - "not quitting" is only a component of passing a selection course.

Of my CAAS class, 65 went out to Camp Mackall. At the end, 62 remained (and of the 3 who departed, only 1 actually voluntarily withdrew/quit). How many got selected? I don't know the exact number, but it was somewhere around 25. Let that sink for a minute... of the 62 folks who NEVER PUNCHED THE QUIT BUTTON, about 60% of them were told "thanks for coming out, good luck in your previous job". Whether or not you pass is not always up to you.

I won't speak for the other programs, but I'd be really surpised if their decisions don't incorporate - at some point - the question "Okay, [candidate] is smart enough, fast enough, and strong enough... now, do we want [candidate] on our team?"

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Just going to throw this out there - "not quitting" is only a component of passing a selection course.

Of my CAAS class, 65 went out to Camp Mackall. At the end, 62 remained (and of the 3 who departed, only 1 actually voluntarily withdrew/quit). How many got selected? I don't know the exact number, but it was somewhere around 25. Let that sink for a minute... of the 62 folks who NEVER PUNCHED THE QUIT BUTTON, about 60% of them were told "thanks for coming out, good luck in your previous job". Whether or not you pass is not always up to you.

I won't speak for the other programs, but I'd be really surpised if their decisions don't incorporate - at some point - the question "Okay, [candidate] is smart enough, fast enough, and strong enough... now, do we want [candidate] on our team?"

That was a part of the whole 'selection' process I was not aware of until I recently watched one of those Discovery Channel documentaries on A&S for Green Beret training. At the end the remaining candidates are segregated into two rooms; you could see everyone eyeing each other up, wondering if it was a good or bad sign that they were in the group with "that guy".

Room A is told "congrats" you are moving forward, room "B" is told, "Thanks for playing". The absolute devastation on the faces of some of the guys Discovery followed but who were not selected, was tough to watch. I am consistently surprised at the number of folks who come here asking for advice about running, rucking, lifting, orienteering, etc, yet rarely ask what traits to focus on so as to be someone that the Cadre who are doing the selecting, would want on their team.

ETA - in no way am I trying to imply I ever attended any type of A&S, just my observation after many years on this forum.

 

[amlove21]

@Totentanz @Ooh-Rah , that 100% happens w us too. Not quitting isn't enough.

You actually have to be selected.

 

[suaveflooder]

You had me at 'this isn't completely accurate.'

I'm basing my opinion off of a couple thousand points of student data, a couple hundred psychological evaluations and exit interviews I've been a part of and an adult life dedicated to the job. Oh, and I have actually done it too, so there's that.

Whatever attitude you need to get you through, go for it. If you really wil die in training doing underwaters- which is a dumb thing to say, if your end goal is to be a PJ but whatever- and that somehow motivates you to study in paramedic later in the pipeline, ok. 'I'd rather die than not study cardiology!!!'

You're the type of dude in my jiu jitsu that gets hurt because he insists the other guy 'didn't really have the choke' and you make us put you to sleep cause you won't tap.

There's 'never quit' then there's 'you're not right for this and you need to stop endangering yourself with your bravado.'

You're sounding a lot like the latter. So, 35 year old dude with nothing to lose, when you quite possibly fail, what's your backup plan? Because my friends at Indoc won't let you keep trying to die, they'll remove you from training and your actions will do the quitting your warrior brain 'just won't let you' do.

One thing I appreciate about you is that you are blunt. I've gone over quite a few of your posts since you seem to have a ton of experience, and once again, I hope I see you in a year or so at some point, and then in two after I complete the pipeline. So, once again, I appreciate your response and there are some fantastic points, most of which I agree with.

My point was simply this: If you have an out, when things get shitty, your tired, and everything hurts, you start listening to that little voice in your head saying, "It's okay! You can quit! You have a backup......". If you don't have that backup, your focus is on finishing. It doesn't mean you won't fail out. My buddy in BUD/s never finished and didn't have a backup and ended up doing a job he HATED, but he said he would do it again the same way.

I have a VERY good chance at failing out. If the 91% failure rate isn't enough, my age isn't helping. Injury is very real for me and I'll be competing against guys that I probably could have fathered (scary thought). I have a water polo background, so that is in my favor for water confidence (harassment), and I've gotten a lot of experience with feeling out my body for injury just through trial and error.

Only time will tell at this point. I'm not even physically capable of getting in currently so it's neither here nor there at the moment. While I'm usually a planner, I'm going in to this a little differently. If I fail out, I'll figure it out then, but this is a huge commitment that deserves 100% of my attention without the backup plan getting in the way.

 

[Ball N' Chain]

It's funny, because coming up in combat sports, quitting was always an option. In wrestling, you could always let yourself get thrown or turned while making it look like you are trying, and get pinned. In jiu jitsu, you could always go for a sloppy take down and get yourself tapped. In muay thai, leaving your hands down and getting rocked one time was easy and surprisingly painless, and generally a coach or ref would step in. Quitting is so easy that it is scary.
I remember my sophomore year in high school I was wrestling in the "Blood Round," the round that dictated if you went to states or not. I was wrestling at 145, but I walked around at 165 regularly, even during the week before tournaments. I was beat up from a tough season, with a jacked up knee and shoulder, and other lingering ailments. I was up in the match with 20 seconds to go by a considerable amount, 4 points to be exact, and we were resetting to referees position with me on top. But something happened, and in a split second, I decided to give up. The long wrestling season, the pain in my body, as well as knowing I would have to cut weight all week again, and lastly knowing I would have to wrestle the returning state champ in the first round of states all succumbed me and I went for an over the back cradle instead of just cutting grass, or basically stalling, and I got flipped to my back for a 2 point reversal and 3 back points. I lost obviously, and at first I was happy. Over the next week, when I had to show up to practice anyway to help the kids going to state, I started to become upset. Upset turned to devastation and self embarrassment when I saw a kid I ran through multiple times placed fourth.
Bottom line, quitting was easy for me. Quitting is easy, and seemingly blissful, because you think about the other side of things. The easy life. To sum it up, I get that quitting is an option, as is failure, and injury.

TOO LONG VERSION: I WRESTLED, I QUIT ONCE, IT SUCKED, I UNDERSTAND QUITTING AND FAILURE IS AN OPTION.

As of now I am in the beginning phases of training for the PAST test. Being honest with myself, I know that I can not pass it. I am not much of a fish in the water and can't hold my breath long. Cals wise, I can knock out push ups, pull ups, and sit ups, and I can run a mile and a half at a 6 minute pace with relative ease. But swimming is my downfall. Knowing this, I am still enlisting in the Air Force, and pushing myself daily to become better. I am confident I will be able to pass the PAST with a couple more weeks of water work, but I know that is nothing compared to Indoc. I have never rucked, never ran more than 3 miles, and the most I have swam is 550 yards with fins. I am on day 3 of PT specific for USAF PJ. I understand it will be grueling and tough, and I also get that whether I quit or not doesn't matter, because if I can't perform they will cut me anyway. I get that. What I also get is that if I don't make it through, that the direction the next four years of my life take are up to the USAF. I am comfortable knowing that no matter what, I did my absolute best in giving my services I feel I owe to my country. While preferably it will be with Pararescue, wherever I end up is all part of the plan and I look forward to what lies ahead.
Backup plan equals wherever I am needed.