Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

If it was the Standard then you'd get a Ranger Tab coming out of IBOLC or Infantry OSUT.

Hey, LT.... are you ever wrong? Has your PSG threatened you with physical harm, or just shaken his head and walked away? If so, you may want to rethink your approach to leadership., communication and ability to learn.

And if you actually paid attention, Ranger School is a leadership course not an advanced Infantry course.
 
Hey, LT.... are you ever wrong? Has your PSG threatened you with physical harm, or just shaken his head and walked away? If so, you may want to rethink your approach to leadership., communication and ability to learn.

Wow, this brings back memories...
 
A couple guys were worried about the course, but I reminded them it would probably be the most professionally ran course to-date (not that the others aren't) based on visibility from higher HQ. The rules will be clearer than ever before, which should help the cadre remove sub-standard performers and help the students perform to the clear and published standard.
 
It's a course about leadership, where you'll learn more about yourself, and who you are, when you are fatigued like you've never been before in your entire life, more hungry than you've ever known, cold, wet, miserable, smelly, and more stressed than you ever have been or will be, EVER, then anything else.

I've been wet, miserable, smelly, hungry, sleep-deprived, stressed and fatigued from days and nights of hyper-vigiliance like I've never been before in my entire life...and I'd still bet--except for the lethal aspects--that Ranger School is probably tougher than the real thing. ;-)
 
Dismounted Recon, if humping your shit in search of the enemy is not similar to the physical job of an infantrymen they need to stop sending Infantrymen to Cavalry Squadrons. Also this discussion is not just about the Infantry but also the Armor branch as well.
Hmm, the purpose of the Ranger School is to develop small tactical leading ability by providing simulated peacetime military leading experience. Although there is being able to do physical aspects of duties connected to being there combat leading this level of physical fitness to do is not directly about humping shit but about being concurrently physically fit to perform duties while effectively commanding (leading) others.

There is much historical inconveniences left out of Ranger histories at to how and why the ugly realities of fighting with leaders (commissioned, warrant, NCOs) either lacking ability to competently command troops in action or being unwilling to command troops in action. Further what is the minimum given these troops, command the effectively in action to do this pass/fail standard? Whatever the minimum standards are, they are certainly a bit more than simply being able to hump shit. But if humping is the standard I guess we can discuss how much sex should happen.

A bit of history:

The Ranger Course was conceived during the Korean War and was known as the Ranger Training Command. The Ranger Training Command was inactivated and became the Ranger Department, a branch of the Infantry School at Fort Benning, Ga., Oct. 10, 1951.

The first Ranger Class for individual candidates graduated on 01 MAR 1952.

WWII historical perspectives:

When developing and deciding if U.S. Army should have commando type units and forces, Major General Dwight D. Eisenhower (who was in 1942 Chief of the Operations Division, War Department General Staff) told Colonel Lucian K. Truscott, Jr., such units and forces should be named something other than “commandos” because that name was so strongly identified with the British. Truscott chose “Rangers” a name that had been carried by a number of American units before, during, and after the War of Independence. The new unit was thus designated the 1st Ranger Battalion.

The 1st Ranger Battalion was officially activated on 19 June 1942. Subsequently the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Ranger Battalions were formed. All the Ranger Battalions were deactivated at the end of WWII.

Korean War influences:

Throughout the period of their existence the Ranger Companies during the Korean War these forces were mostly employed as general infantry rather than as a raiding or marauding force as initially envisioned by Army Chief of Staff, General J. Lawton Collins who ordered the creation of the Ranger Companies of the Korean conflict.

Envisioned by General Collins to be "Marauder" units to operate behind enemy lines, attacking their tank parks and assembly areas, this utilization never happened. The Ranger Companies were generally utilized in Korean conflict as just another infantry company rather than for conducting special missions as raider, marauders or commandos. By June 1951 the Department of the Army decided to inactivate these units and accomplished this by 1 August 1951. Although the Army Staff and major commands saw no need for Ranger units, they did see a need for ranger trained personnel. This resulted in the formation of the Ranger School concurrently with the inactivation of the Ranger Companies.

Generally personnel reports exposed several difficulties pertinent to combat units, in general, having difficulties in maintaining combat effectiveness pertinent to having competent leaders (trained and or experienced) and having leaders willing to lead others in combat. Put differently, those put into positions involving tactical leading were inadequately prepared to deal with the quickly changing tactical situations encountered on the Korean battlefields.

  • officers continued to arrive with combat MOS's who were physically incapable of handling the jobs indicated by the MOS, it was necessary for FEC replacement installations to screen officers for age and physical condition as well as for experience and training in verifying their MOS's.

  • Eighth Amy complained that a number of officers were reluctant to command troops in action and asked that remedial or punitive steps be taken, but in February there was still evidence that proper disposition was not being made of substandard officers. As late as June 1951, commanders were encouraged to make use of their powers under AR >605-200, 615-369, and 615-368 to eliminate ineffective or undesirable personnel.
My worthless opinion:

As much as the day-to-day peacetime military differs from the day-to-day fighting wartime military there is also a significant command the troops difference between supervising, managing, administrative leading and commanding troops in action. There is an abundance of NCOs, Warrant Officers, and Officers willing to make sure reflective belts are worn and more than a few of them take enjoyment in doing so. However commanding troops in actions where incompetence and lack of fitness increases likelihood of becoming WIA or KIA or causing same too others is much less desirable day-to-day environment to be the leader.

The problem with the Ranger School is the standards have already become somewhat diluted by shift from training focus to develop leaders to command others in the fight to being the equal opportunity gender neutral needed for promotion requirement. Commanding others in action at the fire team, infantry squad, combat patrol, platoon and company tactical fighting environment is as much about being able to make effective real-time decisions in a rapidly changing tactical environment as it is being sufficiently physically fit to perform duties in the direct action ground combat environment.

I've been wet, miserable, smelly, hungry, sleep-deprived, stressed and fatigued from days and nights of hyper-vigiliance like I've never been before in my entire life...and I'd still bet--except for the lethal aspects--that Ranger School is probably tougher than the real thing. ;-)
I've not gone through any Pre-Ranger or Ranger courses, but I've been through a few significantly physically and psychologically demanding courses, however, I've accomplished or participated in real world missions/operations that were tougher than I encountered during training. The training experience however was most beneficial particularly since I successfully accomplished what was expected to get accomplished without killing those participating along side me.
 
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I've been wet, miserable, smelly, hungry, sleep-deprived, stressed and fatigued from days and nights of hyper-vigiliance like I've never been before in my entire life...and I'd still bet--except for the lethal aspects--that Ranger School is probably tougher than the real thing. ;-)

Afghanistan-ExperiencesVary.jpg

First of all, the meme expresses my opinion on combat. Smashmouth combat like Soldiers and Marines experienced in the Ia Drang Valley, Hue City, Nasariyah and Fallujah will always be harder than any school to include Ranger school. You are leading men across the line of departure to their potential deaths and asking everything of them along the way. Ranger school cannot hope to simulate the levels of fear that someone experiences in combat. They can, however, ramp up the discomfort. I haven't been to Ranger school but I've been to numerous other courses that adopt the same principles such as the Infantry Officer's Course and the Basic Reconnaissance Course. You make students suffer so they learn what they are like under the worst conditions and also learn how to lead men who want nothing more than to go completely internal. Leading physically exhausted men when you don't have much left in the tank is very similar to high intensity combat. You can't just expect people to do something because you told them to. You have to flip your weapon off safe and show them how it is done yourself. You rely on each other to make it through...both in a nut crushing course like Ranger and in combat when you're passing around your last mags.

On a side note, I am not in the Army and I have not been to Ranger school. It does seem, however, that Ranger school is the standard for Army officers in the infantry. Lieutenants seem to learn tactics at whatever their basic course is and learn to toughen through at Ranger School. I haven't met any Army Majors who weren't Ranger school graduates.
 
I've been wet, miserable, smelly, hungry, sleep-deprived, stressed and fatigued from days and nights of hyper-vigiliance like I've never been before in my entire life...and I'd still bet--except for the lethal aspects--that Ranger School is probably tougher than the real thing. ;-)

Well, all of experiences will vary and so will our view of such things.

A good read, The Marines of Autumn.

Two friends who would disagree, One when he got his Ranger tab after finishing Q (went to 5th group). The other a retired Sgt Major of 29 years in the Corps with a exemplary military resume.

What I once thought was tough, later was not. The worse we have been in, is the worse we have been it. I am so glad I have not seen the worse.

I graduated on Mutter's Ridge 1969 3/3 Marines.
 
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First of all, the meme expresses my opinion on combat. Smashmouth combat like Soldiers and Marines experienced in the Ia Drang Valley, Hue City, Nasariyah and Fallujah will always be harder than any school to include Ranger school. You are leading men across the line of departure to their potential deaths and asking everything of them along the way. Ranger school cannot hope to simulate the levels of fear that someone experiences in combat. They can, however, ramp up the discomfort. I haven't been to Ranger school but I've been to numerous other courses that adopt the same principles such as the Infantry Officer's Course and the Basic Reconnaissance Course. You make students suffer so they learn what they are like under the worst conditions and also learn how to lead men who want nothing more than to go completely internal. Leading physically exhausted men when you don't have much left in the tank is very similar to high intensity combat. You can't just expect people to do something because you told them to. You have to flip your weapon off safe and show them how it is done yourself. You rely on each other to make it through...both in a nut crushing course like Ranger and in combat when you're passing around your last mags.

On a side note, I am not in the Army and I have not been to Ranger school. It does seem, however, that Ranger school is the standard for Army officers in the infantry. Lieutenants seem to learn tactics at whatever their basic course is and learn to toughen through at Ranger School. I haven't met any Army Majors who weren't Ranger school graduates.


In deference to the Rangers on this board I didn't want to make my statement of combat misery and travail sound too much like one-upsmanship. No, I agree with both your post and Hollis's...the hell of the real thing cannot be reproduced at any school, on any course. I worked with Rangers in VN, my counterparts were under Ranger juristiction, and I trained with Rangers in Panama and have much respect for them. My battles had no names. They were running gunfights, ambushes, frenzied moments of murder and mayhem on trails, all-too-frequent boobytrap detonations, nameless little terrors that live only in the names of my brothers on the Wall. "The worse we've been in is the worse we've been in" and thank God it wasn't any worse.
 
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Well, I can specifically say on my part that both EIB training and Ranger school both directly contributed towards mission accomplishment/survival. There was "less fun than Ranger school" operations in Afghanistan, calls for fire that I trained on (including polar) during EIB, methods of operation for specific tasks that directly related to missions we did... there's no way a training environment can ever truly replicate the full spectrum of occurances and shit you deal with in combat, but once again, Ranger school is one of the few courses the military has that comes close. Even if you don't graduate, you're typically better off for having gone than someone who never went at all.

It's training. Tougher training provides a better experience to be able to take with you forward into combat. Will it apply 100%? never will. Will it be worse than combat? never will. Is it worth it? Idunno, you tell me if it was worth going through boot camp? Would you have rather gone to combat straight out the recruiter's back door?

All said and done, there's enough people involved with the whole Ranger school thing and females that the standards aren't being fucked with, and there's people who have no political pull by anyone else who will straight call bullshit if they dick it up.
 
In deference to the Rangers on this board I didn't want to make my statement of combat misery and travail sound too much like one-upsmanship. No, I agree with both your post and Hollis's...the hell of the real thing cannot be reproduced at any school, on any course. I worked with Rangers in VN, my counterparts were under Ranger juristiction, and I trained with Rangers in Panama and have much respect for them. My battles had no names. They were running gunfights, ambushes, frenzied moments of murder and mayhem on trails, all-too-frequent boobytrap detonations, nameless little terrors that live only in the names of my brothers on the Wall. "The worse we've been in is the worse we've been in" and thank God it wasn't any worse.

Imagine if training actually represented the real thing...... it would raise a out cry, over the injuries, fatalities etc. When I was in boot camp, they would close down the really cool obstacle courses. Some mother's son would get hurt, she would call her senator and ..... it was closed for re-evaluation.

The harder we train, the less we bleed. Civilian involvement, right or wrong does not help.
 
...It's training. Tougher training provides a better experience to be able to take with you forward into combat. Will it apply 100%? never will. Will it be worse than combat? never will. Is it worth it? Idunno, you tell me...


In retrospect, speaking for myself, I could've used training that was not necessarily physically or mentally tougher, but more reflective and representative of the way things were actually done in a joint forces field combat unit in the bush. When I got in the rice paddies I had to reboot much of what I'd learned in training. My Actual said "Throw out the book. This is the way we do things here." And the refinements of tactics, procedures and techniques made in the actual Suck were definate improvements over what we'd been taught.
 
One of my buddies classes up this Sunday, there will be females in his class.

Today is the day when all 19 females in process.

Tomorrow officially begins Day 1 of RAP Week.

Word amongst the current RI's is that use of profanity by Instructors, is now prohibited. I have yet to be able to confirm it, but, when tobacco use went the way of the Doh Doh bird soon after Jody cadences became Disney tunes, I don't doubt it at all.

My guess is half, if not more, will be gone by Day 3 and the rest never make it out of the Mountain phase.

Going to be interesting, that's for sure.
 
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We need to train women to be combat leaders! They should be treated the same as men! But um, you know, no cursing guys, it kind of hurts feelings. We're trying to make combat leaders here, ya know?

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