Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[metalmom]

Sorry-didnt explain right. Adrenaline carries everyone in the field-combat Fight or flight response.Choices and duties.. Didnt mean it for selection and training.In combat I would think when adrenaline rushes in you could even at 5 ft nothing-110 lbs drag that wounded soldier or even fireman carry them out. Im too old now to even think sbout trying out-if I was in the US. My focus is on some will pass.I truly want them to. Just dont want to see standards lowered.Freefalling-still didnt explain it correctly as my head sees it.
How do you explain a woman lifting a car because their child was stuck under it.
My opinions in this thread dont count for much-very aware of that. Still want to see them succeed.I can never explain it-its feeling induced. Maybe thats the diff between us.

 

[Totentanz]

No one's questioning their heart or desire. If you're banking on adrenaline to carry the day and overcome existing physical limitations, you've done a poor job of selecting and training your personnel. Sex, age, size...it doesn't matter.

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training." -Archilochus

 

[racing_kitty]

Anecdote time...

Back in 2007, before I really started needing warranty work, I went through WLC (PLDC for you old-timers) at Stewart. My small group was going over different ways to extract a casualty, and my SGL (an 11B) paired me up with this one Pacific Islander dude who was from a CID unit to demonstrate the fireman's carry. I was into weight lifting at the time (although not to the degree I was at Hood), so I was well within my tape allowance at 170lbs. SPC. Samoan, however, easily had me by 70lbs., probably more like 80.

I'm pretty sure my SGL thought I was going to have an aneurysm from how red in the face I got during the lift (that he expected me not to complete), but damn if I didn't get him up and moved a few steps forward. Neither one of us was in full battle rattle, and I'm sure that if we had been, I'd have never gotten him up.

Adrenaline MIGHT have given me the oomph to get him up, but that's the initial burst, not several minutes into contact. SOF guys in gear would weigh about the same as SPC. Samoan, just with a different BMI. Females that could accomplish this would have to train long and hard to get to that capability, if they ever reached it. That inability to move your squad mate is a potentially fatal liability.

 

[104TN]

...That inability to move your squad mate is a potentially fatal liability.

Or something you should have to count on adrenaline to achieve.

 

[NFB19]

I'm not following how commanders' inappropriate use of SOF (e.g. using them like GPF) is relevant. Are you saying that women could make up the losses?

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper would require me to be very PC and would have the possibility of popping up should I ever want a star so I was very delicate in my wording in the argument. With this particular point I mentioned how the integration of women into combat arms MIGHT be a partial solution to this serious issue facing our current military. However, I did mention that this was not a five year solution, but rather, more of a twenty year plan should women be successful in integrating. I did NOT mention that I doubt in even twenty years that females would be of a sizable number in combat arms to stifle this issue, or that, should they go into these occupations and make up a fair percentage of the combat arms forces, they would actually make the issue worse.

As a future officer, one aspiring to enter the Infantry community, this issue is one that I'll actually have to deal with. I have my personal opinions, but we've been taught there's a time and place for those and usually that time and place is not when you are in uniform. I have come to terms that by the time I reach my first platoon there is likely to be at least one female. I am telling myself that none of it will matter, gender, size, etc. as long as I can trust her to have my men's and my back when the SHTF. If she somehow got in on different standards, I'll do my part to ensure that if she's gonna stay, she's going to operate on the same standard. I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

 

[Devildoc]

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper would require me to be very PC and would have the possibility of popping up should I ever want a star so I was very delicate in my wording in the argument. With this particular point I mentioned how the integration of women into combat arms MIGHT be a partial solution to this serious issue facing our current military. However, I did mention that this was not a five year solution, but rather, more of a twenty year plan should women be successful in integrating. I did NOT mention that I doubt in even twenty years that females would be of a sizable number in combat arms to stifle this issue, or that, should they go into these occupations and make up a fair percentage of the combat arms forces, they would actually make the issue worse.

As a future officer, one aspiring to enter the Infantry community, this issue is one that I'll actually have to deal with. I have my personal opinions, but we've been taught there's a time and place for those and usually that time and place is not when you are in uniform. I have come to terms that by the time I reach my first platoon there is likely to be at least one female. I am telling myself that none of it will matter, gender, size, etc. as long as I can trust her to have my men's and my back when the SHTF. If she somehow got in on different standards, I'll do my part to ensure that if she's gonna stay, she's going to operate on the same standard. I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

I am out now so aside from my concern for the military-at-large my perspectives are academic as I won't be in a line unit with women. But because YOU will be, however, I very much appreciate the minefield in which you are volunteering to walk and applaud you for attempt to walk it. As a corpsmen I could tell a platoon-mate "you are a useless bitch" (and I did, all to dudes) and say it with impunity; you most certainly cannot. Best of luck.

 

[AWP]

I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

That could be a very real choice and it is one of several reasons why I no longer wear a uniform. I made that stand and it added with other factors; they cost me. It is easy to say or take that stand until the ramifications catch up to you.

Not preaching to you, just providing perspective as a guy who was once in those shoes over a decade ago.

Good luck.

 

[DocIllinois]

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper would require me to be very PC and would have the possibility of popping up should I ever want a star so I was very delicate in my wording in the argument. With this particular point I mentioned how the integration of women into combat arms MIGHT be a partial solution to this serious issue facing our current military. However, I did mention that this was not a five year solution, but rather, more of a twenty year plan should women be successful in integrating. I did NOT mention that I doubt in even twenty years that females would be of a sizable number in combat arms to stifle this issue, or that, should they go into these occupations and make up a fair percentage of the combat arms forces, they would actually make the issue worse.

As a future officer, one aspiring to enter the Infantry community, this issue is one that I'll actually have to deal with. I have my personal opinions, but we've been taught there's a time and place for those and usually that time and place is not when you are in uniform. I have come to terms that by the time I reach my first platoon there is likely to be at least one female. I am telling myself that none of it will matter, gender, size, etc. as long as I can trust her to have my men's and my back when the SHTF. If she somehow got in on different standards, I'll do my part to ensure that if she's gonna stay, she's going to operate on the same standard. I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

I agree with Freefalling and would add that as an O, you'll also be responsible for influencing others to make something like Gender Integration work. This will likely include salty dog NCOs who are strongly opposed to it.

Oh, and you'll very often have non-hacking problem children in your platoon/ company, BTW.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper would require me to be very PC and would have the possibility of popping up should I ever want a star so I was very delicate in my wording in the argument. With this particular point I mentioned how the integration of women into combat arms MIGHT be a partial solution to this serious issue facing our current military. However, I did mention that this was not a five year solution, but rather, more of a twenty year plan should women be successful in integrating. I did NOT mention that I doubt in even twenty years that females would be of a sizable number in combat arms to stifle this issue, or that, should they go into these occupations and make up a fair percentage of the combat arms forces, they would actually make the issue worse.

As a future officer, one aspiring to enter the Infantry community, this issue is one that I'll actually have to deal with. I have my personal opinions, but we've been taught there's a time and place for those and usually that time and place is not when you are in uniform. I have come to terms that by the time I reach my first platoon there is likely to be at least one female. I am telling myself that none of it will matter, gender, size, etc. as long as I can trust her to have my men's and my back when the SHTF. If she somehow got in on different standards, I'll do my part to ensure that if she's gonna stay, she's going to operate on the same standard. I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

I admire the bravado, but your post makes me chuckle. You have a lot to learn about leadership and the Army.

 

[NFB19]

I admire the bravado, but your post makes me chuckle. You have a lot to learn about leadership and the Army.

*Marine Corps

 

[Il Duce]

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper would require me to be very PC and would have the possibility of popping up should I ever want a star so I was very delicate in my wording in the argument. With this particular point I mentioned how the integration of women into combat arms MIGHT be a partial solution to this serious issue facing our current military. However, I did mention that this was not a five year solution, but rather, more of a twenty year plan should women be successful in integrating. I did NOT mention that I doubt in even twenty years that females would be of a sizable number in combat arms to stifle this issue, or that, should they go into these occupations and make up a fair percentage of the combat arms forces, they would actually make the issue worse.

As a future officer, one aspiring to enter the Infantry community, this issue is one that I'll actually have to deal with. I have my personal opinions, but we've been taught there's a time and place for those and usually that time and place is not when you are in uniform. I have come to terms that by the time I reach my first platoon there is likely to be at least one female. I am telling myself that none of it will matter, gender, size, etc. as long as I can trust her to have my men's and my back when the SHTF. If she somehow got in on different standards, I'll do my part to ensure that if she's gonna stay, she's going to operate on the same standard. I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

I thought this was hilariously fucked-up. You have not even commissioned yet but are making choices to hedge your chances at GO? Here's a tip, see if you've got what it takes to be a good PL, company commander, and field grade officer - that's at least 10 years of your life post-graduation - before you start assessing your chances at GO.

If you do get the opportunity at higher responsibility - which starts at 2LT - you might spend some time considering what role integrity and candor are going to take in your career and your life. If you decide you want to stifle or hide your opinions in the interests of smoothing your way up the ladder that's your choice - but own it. Don't kid yourself into thinking you're going to suddenly become a bastion of telling truth to power when you hit a certain rank or position. If you spent your whole career up to that point kissing ass and carrying water you're not going to turn it around at the top.

Finally, don't hide behind PC labels. If you don't believe in DoD or service policies speak out when given the forum - up and across, not down. If you can't enforce and own as a leader your commander's intent - right up to the President - then military service is not for you.

I think this guy says it pretty well:

australian general comments on sexual harassment - Bing video

 

[TLDR20]

Post

Well said, as always.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

*Marine Corps

LMAO, I was a national guard soldier killing people while you were in elementary school... Humble yourself turbo.

 

[ThunderHorse]

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper would require me to be very PC and would have the possibility of popping up should I ever want a star so I was very delicate in my wording in the argument. With this particular point I mentioned how the integration of women into combat arms MIGHT be a partial solution to this serious issue facing our current military. However, I did mention that this was not a five year solution, but rather, more of a twenty year plan should women be successful in integrating. I did NOT mention that I doubt in even twenty years that females would be of a sizable number in combat arms to stifle this issue, or that, should they go into these occupations and make up a fair percentage of the combat arms forces, they would actually make the issue worse.

As a future officer, one aspiring to enter the Infantry community, this issue is one that I'll actually have to deal with. I have my personal opinions, but we've been taught there's a time and place for those and usually that time and place is not when you are in uniform. I have come to terms that by the time I reach my first platoon there is likely to be at least one female. I am telling myself that none of it will matter, gender, size, etc. as long as I can trust her to have my men's and my back when the SHTF. If she somehow got in on different standards, I'll do my part to ensure that if she's gonna stay, she's going to operate on the same standard. I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

Your professor is not that awesome...something you write college will not affect your chance to make GO, and if it does, fuck them and do something better. Lead your NCOs, lead your Joes. There are always weak links in a platoon, it's yours and your NCOs jobs to train them to be stronger and to push them to places they can't go. That's leadership.

 

[DA SWO]

*Marine Corps

You are not a Marine yet, so I wouldn't get my panties in a wad.

There are some awesome Marines on this board (you'll figure them out), and some awesome non-Marines. They can all give you valuable insight.
FWIW- Be a great Cadet, excel at the Academy. Then concentrate on being a great Lt or Capt; guys who concentrate on becoming GO's before they are commissioned tend to suck.

 

[Totentanz]

Then concentrate on being a great Lt or Capt; guys who concentrate on becoming GO's before they are commissioned tend to suck.

Or even in their company-grade time.

Additionally - just as a piece of advice - get used to scrutinizing your language. Not out of any PC concerns, but one thing junior servicemembers quickly learn is that specific words have specific meanings. Exchanging different terms that you may consider synonyms may have significant consequences for yourself and others if you don't consider the meanings carefully.

"Measure twice, cut once" becomes "think twice, speak once" for junior officers.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

The best 2LT's keep their mouths shut, ears open and learn from their NCO's. The best NCO's treat that 2LT with respect, make sure the missions is accomplished, the men are GTG, and ensure that 2LT gets the credit. Just about the time that LT starts to know the job, they will take him away and give you a brand new one. Funny thing, the worst and best 2LT I ever had was a green to gold E7 11B turned 2LT 11A, couldn't tell that guy shit, but he was also right 90% of the time. Always getting into NCO business and had no problem calling you out behind the conex if you didn't agree. I doubt he went very far as an officer, but I think he was enjoying himself.

 

[Red Flag 1]

I was running an ER at a SAC base just south of the Canadian Boarder. I thought I ran the place, and actually had the potential of becoming a micro managment ogre. One day I walked into the head, and a couple of seconds later, I heard the door lock behind me. There stood a pissed looking USAF TSGT with his arms crossed over his chest. He began with, "Look here man........" in the end, I came to understand I took care of the folks who came through the door needing medical care. Getting anything I needed to provide the care was up to him. Life was a lot simpler for me after that chat, and we may not have been the best of friends, but we would back each other all the way down the line. I learned a great deal from him.

 

[metalmom]

I was running an ER at a SAC base just south of the Canadian Boarder. I thought I ran the place, and actually had the potential of becoming a micro managment ogre. One day I walked into the head, and a couple of seconds later, I heard the door lock behind me. There stood a pissed looking USAF TSGT with his arms crossed over his chest. He began with, "Look here man........" in the end, I came understand I took care of the folks who came through the door needing medical care. Getting anything I needed to provide the care was up to him. Life was a lot simpler for me after that chat, and we may not have been the best of friends, but we would back each other all the way down the line. I learned a great deal from him.

I think we can learn valuable lessons like you did then-but we need to have our ears wide open and be able to accept criticism and move forward.This is why I am here and why this site is so important.If some are not getting the arrogance knocked out of them out there-they sure will here.Thats good teaching moments.

 

[digrar]

I think this guy says it pretty well:

australian general comments on sexual harassment - Bing video

General Morrison was recently awarded Australian of the year. Apart from some very senior officers, the veteran community kicked up a huge fuss. He is not well liked and is seen as agenda driven and quick to ditch the troops he led, for his 15 minutes of fame as a fighter for women's rights, something that garners him 5 figure sums on the lecture circuit.
This particular speech was written by his transgender speech writer. S/he was was also nominated for Australian of the Year and was not a happy little camper when Morrison got the gong.
Most of the people he references at the start of the video clip did little more than receive an email. Most did not open it. He wrecked a number of 20+ year careers for receiving an email. One was terminated for having a brother who also served getting the email. The whole issue had actually been investigated, only one person was ever convicted (an ex service civilian who was the instigator of the email) and listed as pretty much a non event until it became convenient for him to make it a big event.
He had a similar over reaction to posts on a Regiment facebook group becoming public (His Regiment in fact). About 2000 of us received a letter where he denigrated all of our service, over the actions of a few people, on a closed private page.

Morrison was quite happy to walk past the standard, until it became politically and ultimately financially beneficial to take a stand. he's a grub.