Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[Diamondback 2/2]

It ain't going to work that way, and it's going to piss off a bunch of SPC's who have been waiting probably for years, to make SGT. Knowing how difficult it can be to get promoted in the NG Infantry, and knowing how disgruntled many dudes are about it, they will hate her just for wearing that rank and going through a "Infantry transition course" (what in the fuck is that?). They need to come in from Sand Hill as E I owe you ones and earn their place, anything else or less, will simply make them outcasts, especially to the guys who actually care, which undoubtedly are your best people.

Honestly sounds like they are setting a system to side step platoon/company level leadership and give a young, unknowing/understanding lady a way to take problem's (real or perceived) straight to the btn leadership (with pull). Which would be drama queen extraordinar to the tenth power...

I feel for you @DocIllinois

A smarter way, would be a female 2LT/1LT at the Btn level who acts kinda of like an EO style S1, makes sure things get properly investigated, ensures equal bullshit for everyone, and can be the ear for younger ladies, interpret whatever the hell is going on for the commander/Top. Still have normal career progression, etc. She wouldn't have to be Infantry or transitioned, just normal S1 with some extra training for dealing with new female grunt's.

$.02

 

[Grunt]

I suspect there will be concessions made at multiple levels to have women integrated into multiple levels. I suspect that the establishment will not want to wait for women to work their way up the rank structure in grunt related fields.

They will work out a way to put females in leadership roles. It will happen...whether or not it's the right thing to do...they don't care.

 

[DocIllinois]

It ain't going to work that way, and it's going to piss off a bunch of SPC's who have been waiting probably for years, to make SGT. Knowing how difficult it can be to get promoted in the NG Infantry, and knowing how disgruntled many dudes are about it, they will hate her just for wearing that rank and going through a "Infantry transition course" (what in the fuck is that?). They need to come in from Sand Hill as E I owe you ones and earn their place, anything else or less, will simply make them outcasts, especially to the guys who actually care, which undoubtedly are your best people.

Honestly sounds like they are setting a system to side step platoon/company level leadership and give a young, unknowing/understanding lady a way to take problem's (real or perceived) straight to the btn leadership (with pull). Which would be drama queen extraordinar to the tenth power...

I feel for you @DocIllinois

A smarter way, would be a female 2LT/1LT at the Btn level who acts kinda of like an EO style S1, makes sure things get properly investigated, ensures equal bullshit for everyone, and can be the ear for younger ladies, interpret whatever the hell is going on for the commander/Top. Still have normal career progression, etc. She wouldn't have to be Infantry or transitioned, just normal S1 with some extra training for dealing with new female grunt's.

$.02

Agreed, and this makes me consider another aspect. If the female Snuffy goes to the excess E5 with an issue, that matter damn well better always get communicated to the troop's TL. Is there anything that Private 'shouldn't' be able to go to her immediate COC with?

If I were that soldier's TL/SL and knew she went to the liaison with something, then asked the liaison what was up and got any reply resembling "Don't worry about it," I'd come unscrewed.

Closeness, trust and communication aren't just fanciful social constructs in a combat arms unit, they're a necessity.

 

[AWP]

I suspect there will be concessions made at multiple levels to have women integrated into multiple levels. I suspect that the establishment will not want to wait for women to work their way up the rank structure in grunt related fields.

They will work out a way to put females in leadership roles. It will happen...whether or not it's the right thing to do...they don't care.

Once they branch Infantry and finish the career captain's course (MCCC? It changed since I was in) they become eligible for any IN slot including battalion and brigade commanders. The Guard runs a reclassing course for soldiers wanting to become 11B's (plus other MOS'), but O's go through the AD courses. I don't know if this Infantry Transition Course is the same 11B producing/ retraining course or not.

Anyway, you can have a scenario, male or female, where a Signal or Quartermaster O goes to the MCCC and is now eligible to be Infantry/ Armor/ whatever that Course produces. That happens all of the time. Even the AD does it with Branch Detailing. Like it or not there is a precedent for moving female enlisted and officers into combat arms roles because men have done it forever. It is rare to see them do it past the SSG or Captain levels. The FLARNG used to see this a lot as O's jockeyed for promotions; there were a few with more than 2 branches.

 

[Grunt]

Once they branch Infantry and finish the career captain's course (MCCC? It changed since I was in) they become eligible for any IN slot including battalion and brigade commanders. The Guard runs a reclassing course for soldiers wanting to become 11B's (plus other MOS'), but O's go through the AD courses. I don't know if this Infantry Transition Course is the same 11B producing/ retraining course or not.

Anyway, you can have a scenario, male or female, where a Signal or Quartermaster O goes to the MCCC and is now eligible to be Infantry/ Armor/ whatever that Course produces. That happens all of the time. Even the AD does it with Branch Detailing. Like it or not there is a precedent for moving female enlisted and officers into combat arms roles because men have done it forever. It is rare to see them do it past the SSG or Captain levels. The FLARNG used to see this a lot as O's jockeyed for promotions; there were a few with more than 2 branches.

I understand that a little better now as I am woefully ignorant of how the Army does things -- especially along those lines.

 

[DocIllinois]

Once they branch Infantry and finish the career captain's course (MCCC? It changed since I was in) they become eligible for any IN slot including battalion and brigade commanders. The Guard runs a reclassing course for soldiers wanting to become 11B's (plus other MOS'), but O's go through the AD courses. I don't know if this Infantry Transition Course is the same 11B producing/ retraining course or not.

Its a course for an enlisted member to reclass to Infantry. Ours is held at Camp Atterbury.

Infantry Transition Course

Yet another thing that gets under my skin; two weeks to fully reclass as Infantry? Come on.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

If the transition course is the two week 11B MOSQ course the guard use's for reclass, than they will be double fucked. Nobody respects those stupid two week schools, and honestly it pisses guys off again, because someone E5/E6 who was a clerk or whatever, did a two week school and stole a promotion from a guy who's been waiting for years to get promoted.

It's one of the things I've always hated about the NG Infantry units, is they were always, nonstop, screwing over the enlisted. With rank, with schools, with reclass, with unit integrity, with all kinds of stupid stuff that would literally make you want to go postal on people. 50 year old non-deployable overweight E5's holding up promotions.

The guard needs to stop the reclass, start an up or out policy, and boot everyone who can't make tape or pass the APFT on demand. They probably lose 25-30% of the people, but they would be a much better force for it...and they would keep a lot more good people.

 

[AWP]

Its a course for an enlisted member to reclass to Infantry. Ours is held at Camp Atterbury.

Infantry Transition Course

Yet another thing that gets under my skin; two weeks to fully reclass as Infantry? Come on.

The Indiana brigade ran one in Afghanistan (I think all or most of the Guard units did) down in Kabul. All sorts of "dumb" went on down there and it contributed to the cheapening of the CIB. FL runs a 14-whatever reclass for its ADA brigade and I think a 63B (or whatever the vehicle mechanic MOS is these days) reclass as well. The two week or AT+drills+AT reclass programs are one of the dumbest concepts created by the Guard and accepted by the AD. That and running its own OCS program, but that's another story.

Post

While we're all guilty of drifting from the thread, you and Doc bring up great points about the Guard system and how it ties into the problems with integrating female soldiers, problems the AD won't necessarily have. Jam female NCO's through a school no one respects, dump them in a line unit when they aren't ready (but they are on paper, just ask NGB's politicians!), and watch the rebellion begin. I hope someone's tracking retention and transfer rates for combat arms units.

 

[Etype]

Amount of deployments.

i.e. Soviets and Israelis. With those examples I did mention their integration was/is forced due to their state of conflict, one which we have not been seriously threatened with for over a century.

So is the amount of deployments something that would negatively effect women in SOF?

As to your second point, something we haven't been threatened with in over a century? What is that?

 

[Marauder06]

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper ...

You've mentioned this paper of yours several times now. How about taking your name and other identifying information off of it and posting it here or sending it to me in a PM? I don't understand some of the points you're making in referencing it and would like to read it in its entirety. I won't share it with anyone else and I won't comment on it to anyone but you.

That is a point I had to argue for, yes. Note: I was told that the sensitive nature of my paper would require me to be very PC and would have the possibility of popping up should I ever want a star...

An obscure paper you wrote for a random class you had in college 20+ years before could be so sensitive that it might somehow "pop up" when you're under consideration for flag officer rank and adversely affect your chances for a star? Does that sound even remotely possible to you? Please tell me the person telling you this is a career civilian and not someone who actually knows how the military works. You're in college and preparing to be a military officer. Your concerns when it comes to writing papers should be making them "professional," not "PC."

I have my personal opinions, but we've been taught there's a time and place for those.

Yeah, it's called "college." Even at the service academies there are plenty of ways for you to express your opinions... unless you're too scared. You know, for your chances of making flag rank or of not being PC enough or something.

... I will not take anyone, man or woman, who I consider a liability. If that means the end of my career before it's even really began then so be it.

If the last 20 years is any indication, you are dead wrong about the part in bold. You'll take anyone you're told to take, whether you consider them a "liability" or not. There will be very few times in your career, particularly in the early years, when you get to make those kinds of decisions. Just trying to do a little expectation management here.

I'm going to close with this last thought: I'm more than a little skeptical that someone who is already sacrificing his beliefs at the altar of the PC gods over something as trivial as a college paper in order to protect his career is going to spontaneously decide to fall on his sword when it comes to playing for real stakes down the road. It's easy to say what you will or will not do when you're sitting comfortably back home and not confronting those situations directly.

I take that back, that's not my last thought. This is it: you seem like an intelligent and motivated, but as yet inexperienced, individual. In some ways you remind me of me when I was your age. I think you're exactly the kind of person who can benefit from being a member of the ShadowSpear community, if you're willing to actually learn from the experience. As an officer who wants to see an aspiring fellow officer succeed, I recommend a little more humility and some personal reflection on the reactions you've received since you became a member here and to think hard about what your next post in this thread is going to say.

 

[TLDR20]

Good post @Marauder06

 

[Totentanz]

@Marauder06 hit it straight in the X-ring.

 

[Devildoc]

If the last 20 years is any indication, you are dead wrong about the part in bold. You'll take anyone you're told to take, whether you consider them a "liability" or not. There will be very few times in your career, particularly in the early years, when you get to make those kinds of decisions. Just trying to do a little expectation management here.

I was chatting with a PC once, many, many years ago, and he said, and I paraphrase: It's not the studs I worry about, they have enough initiative and intelligence to do the job. Even the mediocre Marines will usually turn out OK with good leadership within the team. My biggest job is motivating and leading the kid that can barely pass the PFT, leading the kid that needs a second and third time to get a concept. Those are the people who most benefit from real leadership the most, and those are the Marines I want to see succeed the most.

You are right: leaders inherit their teams (platoons, companies, ship's company, ODAs, whatever). They have to actually, you know, lead their people.

 

[Il Duce]

I was chatting with a PC once, many, many years ago, and he said, and I paraphrase: It's not the studs I worry about, they have enough initiative and intelligence to do the job. Even the mediocre Marines will usually turn out OK with good leadership within the team. My biggest job is motivating and leading the kid that can barely pass the PFT, leading the kid that needs a second and third time to get a concept. Those are the people who most benefit from real leadership the most, and those are the Marines I want to see succeed the most.

You are right: leaders inherit their teams (platoons, companies, ship's company, ODAs, whatever). They have to actually, you know, lead their people.

I think this is a great point and similar to some of the most helpful advice I ever got as an officer. When I was a LT our BN CSM took out a sheet of paper and laid out a graph for me (he was talking about the things that made a good commander - time management being an under-rated skill).

He laid out a line and said essentially:

'In any given unit you have about 5% of the troopers who are superstars. Doesn't matter where you put them or what you have them doing they will shine. About the same percentage are total dirtbags - criminals, mental cases, unreformed troublemakers. The rest of the unit is in the middle. Let's say in an average unit about half of those folks will tend to make the right choice unsupervised and about half will tend to make the wrong one - but the truth is the average unit's I've seen the split is much more uneven. Most leaders at the company and above spend 90% of their time on the bottom 5% - and so give all their missions to the top 5% because they know they'll get done. A good command team limits the time spent on these bubbas at the edges and concentrates on moving the line on that 90% in the middle.'

I wrote the advice down, had it in my book of reminders before I took company command, and when I whipped out the book and did my first two 90 day assessments on how I was doing in command I found myself falling into this trap he warned me about. I've found it very useful ever since then as a self-evaluation tool and as a tool to evaluate others.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I think this is a great point and similar to some of the most helpful advice I ever got as an officer. When I was a LT our BN CSM took out a sheet of paper and laid out a graph for me (he was talking about the things that made a good commander - time management being an under-rated skill).

He laid out a line and said essentially:

'In any given unit you have about 5% of the troopers who are superstars. Doesn't matter where you put them or what you have them doing they will shine. About the same percentage are total dirtbags - criminals, mental cases, unreformed troublemakers. The rest of the unit is in the middle. Let's say in an average unit about half of those folks will tend to make the right choice unsupervised and about half will tend to make the wrong one - but the truth is the average unit's I've seen the split is much more uneven. Most leaders at the company and above spend 90% of their time on the bottom 5% - and so give all their missions to the top 5% because they know they'll get done. A good command team limits the time spent on these bubbas at the edges and concentrates on moving the line on that 90% in the middle.'

I wrote the advice down, had it in my book of reminders before I took company command, and when I whipped out the book and did my first two 90 day assessments on how I was doing in command I found myself falling into this trap he warned me about. I've found it very useful ever since then as a self-evaluation tool and as a tool to evaluate others.

Had almost the exact same thing (he used 10% top, 10% bottom) explained to me at one of my first NCOPD's. It made a lot of sense once I viewed it in that light of where I needed to dedicate my time and supervision. It was also used to in the example of micro management of the top performers and how it can become counter productive. In many cases it was better to tell them what you want done and allow them to run with it. Where the shitbags almost always needed micro management and direct supervision in all duties. In many cases using newly pinned CPL/SGT's on the lower half in developing their ability to lead hard to lead troops. Obviously different areas of leadership and responsibility between O's and NCO's, but interesting that you used that as a self evaluation tool.

Great post BTW!

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Capt. Griest is going all in. Got her Ranger tab and now off to the infantry. At this point my only opinion on this is that I respect the fact that she's continuing to decline interview requests and is instead just trying to be the best Soldier she can be.

Capt. Kristen Griest, one of the first women to earn the coveted Ranger tab, will once again make history by becoming the Army’s first female infantry officer.

Griest is expected to graduate from the Maneuver Captain's Career Course on Thursday and earn the right to wear the distinctive blue infantry cord, officials confirmed to Army Times.

"Like any other officer wishing to branch-transfer, Capt. Griest applied for an exception to Army policy to transfer from military police to infantry," said Bob Purtiman, a spokesman for the Maneuver Center of Excellence and Fort Benning, Georgia. "Her transfer was approved by the Department of the Army and she's now an infantry officer."

Meet the Army's first female infantry officer

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Capt. Griest is going all in. Got her Ranger tab and now off to the infantry. At this point my only opinion on this is that I respect the fact that she's continuing to decline interview requests and is instead just tying to be the best Soldier she can be.

Capt. Kristen Griest, one of the first women to earn the coveted Ranger tab, will once again make history by becoming the Army’s first female infantry officer.

Griest is expected to graduate from the Maneuver Captain's Career Course on Thursday and earn the right to wear the distinctive blue infantry cord, officials confirmed to Army Times.

"Like any other officer wishing to branch-transfer, Capt. Griest applied for an exception to Army policy to transfer from military police to infantry," said Bob Purtiman, a spokesman for the Maneuver Center of Excellence and Fort Benning, Georgia. "Her transfer was approved by the Department of the Army and she's now an infantry officer."

Meet the Army's first female infantry officer

This is a smart step forward, although it will be interesting where she ends up and if she gets a command or staff job.

 

[Centermass]

Capt. Griest is going all in. Got her Ranger tab and now off to the infantry. At this point my only opinion on this is that I respect the fact that she's continuing to decline interview requests and is instead just trying to be the best Soldier she can be.

Capt. Kristen Griest, one of the first women to earn the coveted Ranger tab, will once again make history by becoming the Army’s first female infantry officer.

Griest is expected to graduate from the Maneuver Captain's Career Course on Thursday and earn the right to wear the distinctive blue infantry cord, officials confirmed to Army Times.

"Like any other officer wishing to branch-transfer, Capt. Griest applied for an exception to Army policy to transfer from military police to infantry," said Bob Purtiman, a spokesman for the Maneuver Center of Excellence and Fort Benning, Georgia. "Her transfer was approved by the Department of the Army and she's now an infantry officer."

Meet the Army's first female infantry officer

Now what....has she earned the right to COMMAND an infantry company?

She has never commanded an Infantry Platoon, at any level, (And sorry, 58 days in the suck doesn't count) never served as an XO in an Infantry Company. So, based on this, and her rank, she just gets to sidestep all the usual requirements of assuming command of an Infantry Company that occurs over a period of 4-6 years along with all the OER's that go along with that recommendation???????

Fail.

 

[DA SWO]

Now what....has she earned the right to COMMAND an infantry company?

She has never commanded an Infantry Platoon, at any level, (And sorry, 58 days in the suck doesn't count) never served as an XO in an Infantry Company. So, based on this, and her rank, she just gets to sidestep all the usual requirements of assuming command of an Infantry Company that occurs over a period of 4-6 years along with all the OER's that go along with that recommendation???????

Fail.

Let's see what they do with her.

Prediction: She goes to the 75th Rgr Rgt in 2-4 years as their first female officer.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Now what....has she earned the right to COMMAND an infantry company?

She has never commanded an Infantry Platoon, at any level, (And sorry, 58 days in the suck doesn't count) never served as an XO in an Infantry Company. So, based on this, and her rank, she just gets to sidestep all the usual requirements of assuming command of an Infantry Company that occurs over a period of 4-6 years along with all the OER's that go along with that recommendation???????

Fail.

I've seen O-3 PL's before normally for very short periods, but its happened. I would imagine she will end up on a btn staff or an HHC commander.

My $.02