Grunt
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Only if Big Army doesn't have different plans for her! She may become "their" poster child -- willingly or unwillingly.
Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion
- Thread starter AWP
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Only if Big Army doesn't have different plans for her! She may become "their" poster child -- willingly or unwillingly.
2-4 years? That's what has me uncorked. She's headed to RASP next.
Which means the standards HAVE CHANGED.
Well she has already become that with graduation of Ranger school and now the Infantry commanders course. But I honestly doubt any Btn commander is going to give her a line company right out the gate, pressure from above or not. No body could justify that, but giving her a staff job, or HHC command would be reasonable. She won't be commanding line platoons besides the scout platoon and that normally got a HSLD PL and normally ends up more of a Btn commander asset vs the HHC CO asset.
I mean she has to go somewhere, if she ends up in a Btn, those two options make sense. Outside of some special "you will get some platoon time" which really depends on her date of rank and if they have a senior enough company commander to make it work.
It's very common to command fairly shortly after a branch transfer. The twist here is very few officers branch transfer into combat arms in the Army. Combat arms are usually where other branches detail their officers as LTs and CPTs - then they transition back to their primary branch. Usually a CPT right out of the career course will go to a BDE and serve somewhere on the staff - preferably in the BN they are competing for command. They'll then take command based on a BDE OML approved by the BDE CDR that factors in time in service, performance, potential, and an internal board process.
I thought about Branch Details, but have only ever heard of combat arms first and then transitioning to a CS or CSS company. As for a BDE OML....I have zero faith in the system to not politicize it where female soldiers are concerned. The odds of her taking an infantry company and outperforming her peers who grew up in infantry units are astronomical.
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Now what....has she earned the right to COMMAND an infantry company?
She has never commanded an Infantry Platoon, at any level, (And sorry, 58 days in the suck doesn't count) never served as an XO in an Infantry Company. So, based on this, and her rank, she just gets to sidestep all the usual requirements of assuming command of an Infantry Company that occurs over a period of 4-6 years along with all the OER's that go along with that recommendation???????
Fail.
Other than the obvious "hell yes" rubber stamp to the request, is there any part of the process that wouldn't have been applied to a male MP 1LT/CPT wanting to jump branches?
(not rhetorical; I'm asking because I don't know)
Sure, but there's politics across the board. One of the factors always considered is where is the CPT in their career. If it's somebody you want to have a shot at MAJ they have to have a command - so frequently dudes get bumped up by seniority not by performance.
It will be interesting to see how combat arms handles it because OS has been dealing with this shit for years. I've seen plenty of stud MI CPTs passed over for command of MICOs so a guy with a Ranger tab could get it - Ranger tab being the explicit criteria. Sometimes that means a branch detailed officer with some experience, mostly it means your most junior CPT who happens to have been branch detailed. Maneuver guys have been saying a guy can be a great commander - doesn't need experience in that branch - in favor of maneuver guys over those branches for years. Now the shoe will be on the other foot.
Similarly, the argument that 'women are going to get preferential treatment in assignment, promotion, CSL, and all the rest because their a minority and need to move up to be represented in senior ranks.' Well, I'm an MI officer - so I wouldn't know anything about that shit. Maneuver guys have had a different set of rules than the rest of us for a long time - and they were the ones that dictated them since they're 90% of the GOs. Now they're going to have to reap a little of that shit sandwich themselves so they better pony up to the table and dig in.
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At the same time, her being the test case and with all eyes on every step of the process, doesn't that potentially ace out any chance of preferential treatment in regards to her assignment? Granted I'm so far out of my lane of expertise here that I'm driving the wrong way in Europe, but I am genuinely curious about this.
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I'm sure they can find a way to spin preferential treatment if they find a need.
Not if the powers that be want it to politically happen. A quiet word to the GO/Division CDR that she really needs to succeed for HIS career will filter its way down the chain and she'll have nothing but stellar OER's. And we all know that what's on paper trumps the truth on the ground when it comes to promotions and perceived success...
Perception is reality
I have zero faith that this will go off smoothly, or the way it would go for a male officer in the same position. The civilian leadership has already shown a complete lack of understanding of the ramifications of their decision-making, a disregard for the ground truth (here's looking at you Mabus), and a propensity to treat the military like a social petri dish. Most general officers, and field grades, will likely bow to pressure, however subtle it may be, and ensure "success" at the cost of efficiency and efficacy. Those who attempt to take a stand will be marginalized at best, and demonized at worst. Their careers will be over either way and the endstate combat power of the United States will gradually weaken as this game of "everyone deserves a trophy and women deserve it more than others" is played out. COL (Ret.) Haring has already written an article stating male leadership will be to blame for female failure. That sentiment will echo and will force an environment of mutual distrust and hostility. This is going to go to a very bad place if we continue down the current path, IMHO.
To be clear, I am talking about the situation as a whole, across all branches. This is bigger than the incident with CPT Griest's career path.
To be clear, I am talking about the situation as a whole, across all branches. This is bigger than the incident with CPT Griest's career path.
DocIllinois
Verified Military
Now what....has she earned the right to COMMAND an infantry company?
She has never commanded an Infantry Platoon, at any level, (And sorry, 58 days in the suck doesn't count) never served as an XO in an Infantry Company. So, based on this, and her rank, she just gets to sidestep all the usual requirements of assuming command of an Infantry Company that occurs over a period of 4-6 years along with all the OER's that go along with that recommendation???????
Fail.
Unless the process has changed along with other things in the Infantry, a tab and cord get an incoming PL about a week of quasi respect. After that, if the people they are commanding decide they're maybe ok its a long process of harshly testing the officer's confidence, composure, and sense of dignity - things which factor very heavily into combat arms leadership.
I hope that this cherry CPT doesn't get all butt hurt when/ if this happens in a place where they have no genuine experience.
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ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Now what....has she earned the right to COMMAND an infantry company?
She has never commanded an Infantry Platoon, at any level, (And sorry, 58 days in the suck doesn't count) never served as an XO in an Infantry Company. So, based on this, and her rank, she just gets to sidestep all the usual requirements of assuming command of an Infantry Company that occurs over a period of 4-6 years along with all the OER's that go along with that recommendation???????
Fail.
Having been an S1 in my last job, I will inform all who would think otherwise: Command is a Right! Captains are managed by year groups and at a minimum will get their 12+ months...if they serve under 12 months you know something bad occurred. HHC should always be a second command...why, because the BC needs a solidly built HQ and a CDR that knows how to maneuver pieces. She may end up as an FSC commander, I've seen Armor and Artillery officers command them, I've also seen an Artillery Officer command a Recon Troop. But make no mistake, HRC does not value commands outside of your MOS as much as commands within your MOS.
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Okay so...since we are all rubbing our temples and channeling our inner psychic, what is your gut prediction with her?
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
I have no idea, that she gets her 12 months to command an Infantry Company, I would suspect Branch would attempt to send her to an SBCT or ABCT. But she's quoted as wanting to be super high speed so she'll probably try to go to Bragg or Campbell. In a Vacuum I would think it would be very tough for her to compete physically, but if she earns it in the S3 shop and her BC pushes for her she'll see command. What she does with her 12 months is up to her. With a good 1SG any commander can come out not completely dicked up even though they might be. I honestly don't know, and I think it's a bad move considering the way the Army did this integration thing.
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On what basis? Your answer to why you belong in charge of a formation (ANY formation, much less a combat arms formation) is that it'll fuck your career otherwise? Holy shit...
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
That's the reality of how Officers are managed, you get placed into Key Development jobs, if you fail to complete the required amount of time you're done. For Captains that means 12 months of command time within your MOS. For Field grades it's 24 months of S3/XO time, for LTC it BN CMD (of any kind). Should it be that way? Probably. Now how the BDE CDR and BDE S1 manage the command OML is different in every BDE.
^He's correct. That is exactly how it works, especially in the company grade ranks, and not just in the Infantry.
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