Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[Marauder06]

I was chatting with a PC once, many, many years ago, and he said, and I paraphrase: It's not the studs I worry about, they have enough initiative and intelligence to do the job. Even the mediocre Marines will usually turn out OK with good leadership within the team. My biggest job is motivating and leading the kid that can barely pass the PFT, leading the kid that needs a second and third time to get a concept. Those are the people who most benefit from real leadership the most, and those are the Marines I want to see succeed the most.

You are right: leaders inherit their teams (platoons, companies, ship's company, ODAs, whatever). They have to actually, you know, lead their people.

Yes, this exactly.

In more than 20 years of commissioned service, I've had exactly one assignment where I had completely unrestricted hiring and firing authority. Assigned, augmentee, military, civilian, higher rank than me, somebody's boy... whatever. If I didn't think you were a good fit, you didn't get in. If I didn't think you were working out, you were gone that day. That was for one one specific position downrange with the Task Force, which I filled for four months before I rotated out and it was someone else's gig. When I was in 5th Group I got to leave one NCO behind because he was a dirtbag (he ended up with a USASFC combat patch anyway, which is a completely different story). Other than that, I had to play the hand I was dealt with the cards that the Army dealt me.

At the height of the GWOT not only was it almost impossible to get rid of someone, we were letting in all kinds of people with sketchy backgrounds. People coming into the military need to come to grips with the fact that there are going to be "liabilities" in their formations. Pre-service, they need to concentrate on not being that liability themselves before they worry about what they're going to do about the shortcomings of others.

 

[AWP]

On what basis? Your answer to why you belong in charge of a formation (ANY formation, much less a combat arms formation) is that it'll fuck your career otherwise? Holy shit...

If they underperform at lower levels they shouldn't have a shot at round 2. If they performed, even marginally, then they should go on to the next level. While it rarely happens I think that's one reason you have the mandatory PL, Company XO, Company Commander, Staff, OPs, BN XO, etc. path. It doesn't just make sense it can (if done properly which is perhaps another discussion) serve as a checks and balances against dirtbags.

Now, the logic of "He sucked as an XO, but maybe he'll be a good CO because he deserves that shot" is something I can't wrap my head around and would hope that isn't practiced.

 

[NFB19]

So is the amount of deployments something that would negatively effect women in SOF?

As to your second point, something we haven't been threatened with in over a century? What is that?

The amount of deployments is negatively affecting Infantry and SOF forces now is what I'm saying.

Second point: Invasion and occupation of the homeland.

Marauder06, you'll be receiving a PM shortly concerning your post.

 

[TLDR20]

The amount of deployments is negatively affecting Infantry and SOF forces now is what I'm saying.

Second point: Invasion and occupation of the homeland.

Marauder06, you'll be receiving a PM shortly concerning your post.

The amount of deployments is what makes our force strong as well. I don't think in the history of our military you had as many experienced SOF/infantry guys filling the ranks.

 

[Viper1]

If they underperform at lower levels they shouldn't have a shot at round 2. If they performed, even marginally, then they should go on to the next level. While it rarely happens I think that's one reason you have the mandatory PL, Company XO, Company Commander, Staff, OPs, BN XO, etc. path. It doesn't just make sense it can (if done properly which is perhaps another discussion) serve as a checks and balances against dirtbags.

Now, the logic of "He sucked as an XO, but maybe he'll be a good CO because he deserves that shot" is something I can't wrap my head around and would hope that isn't practiced.

This happens all the time. Saw it from the time I was a Cherry LT until I left. 11 years of watching mediocre people get promoted and placed in positions of responsibility to "square them away for the board." It doesn't make sense but it happens and will continue to happen until senior leaders from O-4 and above are held accountable for their counseling. No one has the heart to tell anyone, "Hey man, you gave it your best shot and we need to look at work in another area suited to your strengths or you need to find work outside of the military". No one has the heart to tell someone, "Hey man, command and leadership isn't your strong suit." SF was much better at this than others but it depended on the leader. First SF BC fired a guy in the middle of a meeting for poor performance. Next BC couldn't fire anyone, no matter how much his XO or S-3 and Commanders pleaded with him.

 

[Marauder06]

....

Marauder06, you'll be receiving a PM shortly concerning your post.

Thank you for that very professional email. I look forward to talking more later.

 

[Etype]

The amount of deployments is negatively affecting Infantry and SOF forces now is what I'm saying.

Second point: Invasion and occupation of the homeland.

Marauder06, you'll be receiving a PM shortly concerning your post.

US SOF is comprised of the best supported, most lethal, most survivable ground forces ever to exist within the known universe.

This is a direct result of the recent OPTEMPO.

There are plenty of ways for guys to get out of line units and stay home if they want to, most dudes want more deployments.

I'm sure you can analyze certain selections of data and come up with negatives, but high OPTEMPO is a net positive.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Well done, Marines. And by that I am not in any way being negative towards the woman Marine, but instead pleased that the Corps is holding strong on their standards.

The 30th woman to attempt Marines' Infantry Officer Course is dropped

Latest Woman to Try Marines' Infantry Officer Course Drops after Hike | Military.com

 

[Devildoc]

Well done, Marines. And by that I am not in any way being negative towards the woman Marine, but instead pleased that the Corps is holding strong on their standards.

The 30th woman to attempt Marines' Infantry Officer Course is dropped

Latest Woman to Try Marines' Infantry Officer Course Drops after Hike | Military.com

Of course, there is glaring difference between no woman making it through IOC and a few women having made it through SOI. I have seen some of one IOC course, it seemed jog-run-sprint; while SOI seemed more crawl-walk-jog. Aside from the sheer pace I don't know why one seems to be attainable but not the other.

 

[Grunt]

SOI -- or ITS as it was called when I went through -- was basically an extension of Boot Camp with an emphasis on whatever your MOS was. We were still thrashed and ran every where we went.

I did't find it to be taxing physically as I was already in shape -- physically and mentally. However, that's not to say that it wasn't hard for those that weren't. I would say it was more mental for them than physical.

After all...heart can only take you so far if you can't push past the physical pain and tiredness!

 

[AWP]

Of course, there is glaring difference between no woman making it through IOC and a few women having made it through SOI. I have seen some of one IOC course, it seemed jog-run-sprint; while SOI seemed more crawl-walk-jog. Aside from the sheer pace I don't know why one seems to be attainable but not the other.

I think Teufel had a great post (like he has any other kind) on IOC vs SOI, probably in this thread somewhere.

 

[Brill]

I think Teufel had a great post (like he has any other kind) on IOC vs SOI, probably in this thread somewhere.

Sir, that post is just over the next hill.

 

[TLDR20]

Sir, that post is just over the next hill.

Just one more klick

 

[Marine0311]

Just one more klick

I meant two more klicks.

 

[8654Maine]

SOI -- or ITS as it was called when I went through -- was basically an extension of Boot Camp with an emphasis on whatever your MOS was. We were still thrashed and ran every where we went.

I did't find it to be taxing physically as I was already in shape -- physically and mentally. However, that's not to say that it wasn't hard for those that weren't. I would say it was more mental for them than physical.

After all...heart can only take you so far if you can't push past the physical pain and tiredness!

I went through ITS in Geiger twice: 0311 and 0352 training.

Ahh, the memories!

 

[ThunderHorse]

Allen West's Editorial: Congrats to the Army's first female infantry officer; now here's the BIG question... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com

 

[Viper1]

I expect more out of Allen West. A high schooler could pen a more cogent, coherent, thoughtful, and respectful article. Wow.

 

[DA SWO]

I hope she kicks ass and doesn't waste time by taking names.

 

[Marauder06]

I expect more out of Allen West. A high schooler could pen a more cogent, coherent, thoughtful, and respectful article. Wow.

Concur. I'd fail one of my students for turning in some weak-ass shit like that.

He's assuming that standards dropped at Benning just because they changed the name... long before the first woman attended the MCC? And he has questions about someone (anyone?) meeting the fitness standards for a TRADOC school... really?

Of course Griest will be groomed for company command... she's an Infantry officer now and that's what happens with Infantry officers. Let her get on with her job and leave the "combat advising of female Peshmerga" to those whose job that kind of thing is: SOF.

 

[DocIllinois]

I expect more out of Allen West. A high schooler could pen a more cogent, coherent, thoughtful, and respectful article. Wow.

I also concur with this statement, and have graded 101 Composition papers as an English Lit. TA that read better than his piece.

Additionally, none of LTC Allen's thoughts in that article are terribly original at this point. He is yet one more reason to be upset if I ever see Fox News on in my house.