USMC was #6. The Navy was #s 3,4 and 5
Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion
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USMC was #6. The Navy was #s 3,4 and 5
Having gone through IOC, nothing about that hike(s) is unreasonable. Weight was based off of a METT-T for the training evolution, and the required weapon systems/ammunition/gear was hauled to the training area. Frankly, I thought that hike was one of the easier ones, as the time hacks were slower than the normal pace.
A female will pass that course eventually and the infantry won't disintegrate. However, it is frustrating that such a strong agenda is being pushed by people who have contributed nothing from within the community in a attempt to fix something that isn't broken.
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It is true at least for me because I did it at least once during my time in the sandbox. Other dismounted patrols were doing with those "patrol backpacks" or whatever you want to call them and still with everything crammed in.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Hehe, open letter to Ellen Haring:
Letter To The Army Colonel Who Said Marine Standards Are Unrealistic
In the latest Armor Branch newsletter they talked about how twenty women have been accessed to the branch.
ABOLC is not extremely strenuous physically because we did not have the same time in the course to just focus on foot marches. My Marine tactics officer said at the time, because we as a class were wanting more of the hard stuff, "not gonna happen, do you muldoons have any idea how hard it is to teach you after we did a 8-mile forced march for PT?"
We only did two marches the entire time for conditioning, however during our field portion there were several times we had to conduct infiltrations on the reconnaissance side. Even in the Early fall, humping 10k over the terrain in Good Hope Maneuver Area was strenuous...and when that mission ended we had to refit three hours later for another mission. There is still nothing to this day so strenuous that a woman couldn't complete in the ABOLC curriculum.
As a reconnaissance PL in a heavy formation I was tied to my vehicle, but my commander enjoyed air insertions so we did them in our Troop collective training before the SQDN deployed to the sand for an NIE. In the summer heat of Fort Bliss with an 80lb load I'll tell you it's rough if your legs aren't conditioned from running and marches.
I trained my dismounted teams to be able to march 10Ks for infiltration and establishment of OPs, their loads would shift if they were going to be out there for days but rarely did it drop below 40lbs and more often than not with extra radios, batteries and optics it would be near 80lbs. So this idea that requirements are too tough...I would say the Army's does not represent the facts.
Letter To The Army Colonel Who Said Marine Standards Are Unrealistic
In the latest Armor Branch newsletter they talked about how twenty women have been accessed to the branch.
ABOLC is not extremely strenuous physically because we did not have the same time in the course to just focus on foot marches. My Marine tactics officer said at the time, because we as a class were wanting more of the hard stuff, "not gonna happen, do you muldoons have any idea how hard it is to teach you after we did a 8-mile forced march for PT?"
We only did two marches the entire time for conditioning, however during our field portion there were several times we had to conduct infiltrations on the reconnaissance side. Even in the Early fall, humping 10k over the terrain in Good Hope Maneuver Area was strenuous...and when that mission ended we had to refit three hours later for another mission. There is still nothing to this day so strenuous that a woman couldn't complete in the ABOLC curriculum.
As a reconnaissance PL in a heavy formation I was tied to my vehicle, but my commander enjoyed air insertions so we did them in our Troop collective training before the SQDN deployed to the sand for an NIE. In the summer heat of Fort Bliss with an 80lb load I'll tell you it's rough if your legs aren't conditioned from running and marches.
I trained my dismounted teams to be able to march 10Ks for infiltration and establishment of OPs, their loads would shift if they were going to be out there for days but rarely did it drop below 40lbs and more often than not with extra radios, batteries and optics it would be near 80lbs. So this idea that requirements are too tough...I would say the Army's does not represent the facts.
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Kraut783
SOF Support
Hehe....good letter and a very nice and professional way to tell retired Colonel Haring to STFU and mind you own business.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
Respect, brother.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
Admittedly, coffee went up my nose when I read this.
That said, I've been working with a team of FMF-qualified Corpsmen the past week and they're fitter than I am (damn it) save one.
I've heard many stories of guys packing 150+lbs of gear in and out of the mountains of Afghanistan. Lucky, I never had to hump more than 60-80 lbs assualt pack in Iraq, and never in any mountains. As @policemedic said, much respect brother...
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Thank you and respect to you.
I did it here and there in Iraq so no Afgan mountains and such for me. As I said when we did it with those patrol backpacks also add the weight of your vest, plates, and anything you carry on your LBV . Yeah that was fun.
I just don't agree with carrying that weight for the sake of it but I still think it is a valuable training tool and to wit the more you sweat in training the less you bleed in war.
The 12 mile ruck at the TACP schoolhouse is done with about 115-120# of gear on. The loadout is definitely not unreasonable based on what we would need to carry to conduct operations living out of our rucks. It would be even heavier on a real mission, because we weren't carrying food, and we only had enough water for the ruck. It's not just the ruck either. Can you still function and do your job when you get to the OP and drop the ruck? It's pointless to have someone who can only make it to the site, but can't contribute once there.
TLDR20
Verified SOF
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Is this a ruck for time, or a simulated mission? 115-120 of gear(total on a person) is different than 115-120 of rucksack. I do totally agree with what you are saying. I only ask because a 120lb road march is a recipe for training injuries.
The heaviest ruck I carried was somewhere in the neighborhood of 128 lbs. Plus a normal load of ammo, nods, radio the whole deal on my person. As a 200 pound dude I actually prolly weighed in close to 400 lbs. We moved nowhere near 12 miles and it was a smoke session. Even on a road it would have been very rough going. That was my infil to Robin Sage. Was all that mission essential gear? Apart from all the copenhagen(which is debateable) absolutely.
Rucks need to be heavy in training. They will certainly be heavy again.
Bingo! To give an additional perspective, an entry fitness test that takes an hour or so to accomplish or a required annual occupational-specific fitness test that takes an hour or so to accomplish, by themselves is inadequate to determine individual's performance reliability and dependability to contribute on arriving, particularly if it a no-notice rapid response to the over-the-horizon crisis or incident objective area/site with minimal if any support.
Ruck for time. It was 120# total. Probably 75-80# in the ruck, then helmet, rubber duck, body armor, and LBV.
Haring is a femi -nazi who seems to think her Bull Winkle badge made her a subject matter expert on all things men vs women in the military.
Her Army BS was bad enough. Hitting the Marines with more of it justifies the mantra "Stay in your lane and stay out of ours"
Her Army BS was bad enough. Hitting the Marines with more of it justifies the mantra "Stay in your lane and stay out of ours"
Color me unsurprised. I don't think all women are in it just for the attention, but it looks like MAJ Jaster is, and she won't be the last. Especially now that the door has been opened.
"Rangers Lead The Way..." To The Bank. Female Ranger Seeks To Cash In On Fame?
"Rangers Lead The Way..." To The Bank. Female Ranger Seeks To Cash In On Fame?
Are you honestly surprised? The only thing I'm surprised about is how long it took. I'm standing by for the first GI Jane frog-woman story.
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I am not surprised at all. Get paid to speak? Cool. It's the American way. I kinda admire it.
Any one who is the "first" to achieve something that many others haven't, open themselves up to being approached about a book concerning their experience.
It would be nice if she decides to do an honorable book about her accomplishment and doesn't make it a "political" statement. Her book could "help" or "hurt" females advancement in combat arms. The ball is in her court and it all depends on how she handles it.
It would be nice if she decides to do an honorable book about her accomplishment and doesn't make it a "political" statement. Her book could "help" or "hurt" females advancement in combat arms. The ball is in her court and it all depends on how she handles it.
She wasn't first. She was third. And there is something... unseemly about taking that kind of money for speaking engagements while still holding a commission (she's in the Reserves so this is completely legal AFAIK).
I agree with the unseemly part however, it doesn't seem like the same opprobrium is applied to male special operators who release tell-alls, biographies, or memoirs - even those who are found to have fabricated or exaggerated portions of their story. It seems like we've developed a voyeuristic culture when it comes to military service in general, through media savvy SOF, and this officer is reaping the benefits. The mark of support or offense seems to be how much you identify with the person. People on SS love to read about hooah dude X, Y, or Z as they imagine themselves in the image of that person. I would bet this officer gets paid a premium for the same reason with other demographics.
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