TLDR20
Verified SOF
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 6,301
There have been multiple threads here talking about guys like Mark Owen. Not much of it positive.
Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion
- Thread starter AWP
- Start date
There have been multiple threads here talking about guys like Mark Owen. Not much of it positive.
As TLDR20 said, male servicemembers have been strongly criticized for releasing that media. However, they had at least actually done something in the real world. Going on a speaking tour because you got a Ranger tab? A male MAJ who completed Ranger School would be laughed out of the office for proposing he be paid to talk about that experience. Further, imagine what would happen to a new team member who just completed SFQC, SQT, etc. and decided to write a book on his training experiences.
Devildoc
Verified Military
The FMF-qualled corpsmen span the spectrum as well. Yes, the corpsmen in the combat arms are typically very fit; air wingers, not so much. FSSG (or whatever it is called now), not so much.
I think there is a difference between a male MAJ who completed RS and the 3rd woman to do so. Whether or not that experience is enough to warrant payment for speaking should/is decided by market forces.
If a new team member decided to write about his training experience there would be nothing inherently wrong with it. Once he/she decides to claim things they have no experience in there should be harsh criticism.
It seems there is a type of value assessment going on.
While I don't necessarily agree the female MAJ with a tab is the pinnacle of leadership, she does have some demonstrable form of overcoming adversity. The great thing is there are hundreds of speakers to pick from. I see nothing terrible about this.
I was thinking about Marcus Luttrell and Chris Kyle - people who were legitimate special operators who went through some legitimate shit, but also exaggerated or fabricated things.
Ultimately consumers, including members of SS, pay for the things that engage them and ignore or otherwise look past the things that don't. I think that's a big part of the market in military-themed literature - driven in large part by SOF during the GWOT. Not trying to devalue people's choices, just saying those same factors are likely in play for this officer's ability to get paid speaking gigs. There's a population who is engaged and impressed with her accomplishments and is willing to pay to hear her story.
I think personally it's unseemly. But, I've never done anything anyone would pay to hear about so I'll sit over with the haters. But, I don't think it's fair to hate on this lady and her fans while lining up to buy the next issue of SOF-core porn (trademark pending).
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Kyle and Luttrell's books were approved for release by DoN.
Whether or not it warrants payment is an entirely separate matter from how it looks. The fact is that as the 3rd woman to complete Ranger School, she has more of a responsibility to set the example. Immediately seeking to cash in, while not inherent illegal, is certainly unseemly and distasteful. Maintaining a quiet professionalism and offering to help women wanting to walk her path is one thing, running to the bank with a fistful of cash is quite another.
I'm not saying there would be anything inherently wrong with it. What I am saying is that your leadership at 3/75 likely would have had a strong conversation with you had you decided during your first month at Regiment to write a book about training. They may have colorfully suggested you focus on learning the job and being as grey as possible. Do you disagree? She should use her experience to help other women, but I strongly disagree with this move. It's unprofessional, attention-seeking, and selfish.
What is "setting the example" is up for interpretation, I suppose. If we were to disagree with anything, it seems to lie on this issue. It could be argued that since she is one of the first, she is obliged to share her experience, thereby motivating more women and men to aim high. I'm not saying this is my view, I just see it as not so clear. Again, a quiet professionalism could recruit fewer people to walk her path. She isn't in the CIA or under NDA, so I see little distasteful about it. If it were proven her motives for Ranger School were to make a "fistful of cash", I would see this as unseemly, just as you do. I would just like evidence of such motives.
I think being in a Special Operations unit (with my tiny bit of experience), is different. Again, I am amateur hour compared to the great people we have on this forum. However, I think what SOF does as a job, is in fact, different from a leadership course or military school. While there might be similarities, the responsibilities of both respective groups (SOF and MIL school attendees) are not similar. I agree with you about what leadership in Batt might say, but, it's because of the nature of the job. By wanting to be assessed and selected by certain organizations, I would argue you give up your right to do certain things. I simply don't extend this obligation to most military schools. Schools with NDA's and "critical/mission essential information" seem to fit the "don't talk about this" side of the argument.
I think her experience can be used to help many people, not just women. Probably very few on this forum, but I doubt her talks would be for people like us.
Note: I suppose it's important to note I am fairly biased. My whole career was started because of books from SOF veterans...some vetted and some not. Either way, I was inspired and still am.
I don't have any respect for her. Not because she's a female with a tab, but for all the complaining and crying she did to her husband, who then, promptly shared it on social media with the world.
Her husband is still a MAJOR pussy. Talk about a fucking whiner.........
To add,
Just what we need. Someone who moaned and bitched the whole time, about getting screwed throughout the entire process, now doing speaking engagements on Leadership.
Yup, that's a strong Ranger right there.......
Just what we need. Someone who moaned and bitched the whole time, about getting screwed throughout the entire process, now doing speaking engagements on Leadership.
Yup, that's a strong Ranger right there.......
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Ten women graduate from the Army's first integrated infantry officer course
Any chance we have a syllabus from five years ago and compare it to the published syllabus today?
Any chance we have a syllabus from five years ago and compare it to the published syllabus today?
DocIllinois
Verified Military
I went through almost that long ago and the calendar looks virtually the same.
The final exercise for our class was a full two weeks starting on the weekend, which is the only major difference I can see.
IBOLC Training Calendar
The final exercise for our class was a full two weeks starting on the weekend, which is the only major difference I can see.
IBOLC Training Calendar
Survey: Women troops feel undervalued and unappreciated
Jesus Christ. Now, it's not about service, it's about making sure enough people are told that you serve. IIRC, people that do well at their jobs are typically recognized accordingly. Even if you do, and you aren't, so what? If you need recognition or an attaboy (attagirl) every time you do something, go find something else. Otherwise, just do your fucking job.
Jesus Christ. Now, it's not about service, it's about making sure enough people are told that you serve. IIRC, people that do well at their jobs are typically recognized accordingly. Even if you do, and you aren't, so what? If you need recognition or an attaboy (attagirl) every time you do something, go find something else. Otherwise, just do your fucking job.
I'd be curious to see the number of commendation or achievement medals awarded to females (in any MOS) when compared to the number of those awarded to male grunts. In the infantry you don't get a NAM (or AAM) for simply getting MRE's to the field for a two week op.
Devildoc
Verified Military
I note the irony. The military is the great melting pot, a sea of anonymity, where you are supposed to be a small cog in a huge machine, the ultimate selfless team. And they feel undervalued and unappreciated. For fuck's sake, how many times have I heard "It's not about you"? And now they claim, "but it's about me."
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
When I was an S1, one of the other battalions authorized 150 impact AAMs for a month long exercise. Between impact and achievement AAMs we issued 30...
Devildoc
Verified Military
The Navy changed the approving authority for NAMs around 2003. Before, the approving authority was higher; after, it was at the local command. We went from no one getting one to everyone getting them, mainly because of the promotional points.
My first, as a corpsman, was when the I&I corpsman was fired because she was an idiot and played a race card every other day; they put me on orders, I covered the job for three months before they could get another. I got a NAM because I processed something like 15 med boards, filed a shit-load of NOEs, redesigned the medical department of the Marine side of the reserve center, wrote contracts and MOAs with local medical providers for different services, ended up saving a lot of money. I got a NAM for that; it had to be approved at the battalion level. It was reluctantly approved...I understood that they wanted to give me a letter of commendation instead (which would have been fine).
Fast forward, after I was commissioned, one of my collateral duties was to process AT orders for members of my unit. I got a NAM because I spent two drill weekends making sure everyone got their orders. THAT NAM was approved by the CO of the reserve center. My unit chief got a Navy Comm for redesigning the goat locker ("Chief's mess" for you non-Navy types). Unbelievable.
I think in general it's a bad idea to dismiss concerns from a survey because you don't see the same thing from your foxhole - it's one of the reasons to have surveys like command climate.
In this case the survey asked women to list issues affecting female servicemembers. I think it's unbelievably hypocritical to then criticize them as complainers for responding as requested.
Devildoc
Verified Military
I understand what you are saying, but I am challenged in feeling that the command climate surveys have moved from sexual harassment/assault to "do you feel validated?"-types of questions. I do agree re: the hypocrisy of asking the question then being critical of them answering. I am critical of surveys like this to begin with, and have seen it in civilian medicine where the onus has moved from supporting quality care to service with a smile and customer service. Honestly I don't know where the balance lay, but I feel that when you sign up, you know what you are getting into and should be well aware you will likely feel undervalued and underappreciated (and underfed and underslept and overtired...) for a good part of your military career. In short, and maybe it's because I own a Y chromosome, I never, ever, thought what or how I felt ever mattered in achieving the mission.
Because command climate surveys are so useful? Lack of appreciation can hardly be seen as valid concern. Everything is focused on them. They are held to lower standards, praised more for meeting them, and allowed special benefits not available to male servicemembers. If you want recognition, do something worthy of it. I think it's ridiculous to criticize me for saying they should focus more on doing their jobs, and less on how often people tell them they're special snowflakes. FWIW, I would say the same thing if it was about males. However, male responses to questions like that are not given the same weight anyways. When was the last time you took a male only survey? Yet I'm the hypocrite.
Similar threads
