Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[Ooh-Rah]

 

[Ohge]

Yeah, I definitely still pretty much agree with you.

I am in full understanding of the implementation plan released by SecDef outlining their plans to develop and validate tests/standards and to establish the precedent for all other physically-demanding AFSCs.

I also know about the removal of the PAST (para 3.5.1.3); I talked to the CFM/FDM to make sure it was removed!

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the differences in fitness standards between PJs and CCT are clearly reflected in the TAPAS. The TAPAS is a personality test and has no real bearing on physical attributes; additionally, neither CCT nor PJs include a TAPAS requirement per the October 2016 AFECD.

Also interesting to note:

ALO (13LX) still requires completion of the TACP PAST according to its specialty quals (para 3.5.3) in the October 2016 AFOCD; the same goes for TACP in the AFECD (para 3.5.1.1).

CCT states a requirement to complete the CCT PAST and refers to the A3T website; STO, however, does not mention the PAST at all, but instead references AFI 13-219 Vol 2 for fitness requirements throughout the pipeline.

The most recent release of the PAST worksheet available on AETC/A3T's page is still dated 01 Sep 14 and includes requirement criteria for PJ, CCT, SOWT, TACP, SERE, and EOD.

Donley's memo to SecDef outlining the AF's plan states that "active recruitment of women into previously closed career fields cannot commence until gender-neutral standards are validated and the congressional notification/waiting period has expired." The waiting period expired in January of this year, if I recall correctly, and there is no longer a Column O in the Attachment 4 of the AFECD (barring women from specific AFSCs), but if what you are saying about TACP is true, the standards couldn't have been evaluated. Wasn't there a female who passed the TACP PAST in May of this year?

 

[Jay_Pew]

Wasn't there a female who passed the TACP PAST in May of this year?

There was but she ended up dropping out in the first day or so due to an injury.

First woman to attempt TACP training left after injury

 

[Ohge]

Ah, thanks! That still means she had to take the PAST to start, doesn't it? I never heard that any of the BA AFSCs suspended their PASTs, so I was curious about that.

 

[CDG]

Ah, thanks! That still means she had to take the PAST to start, doesn't it? I never heard that any of the BA AFSCs suspended their PASTs, so I was curious about that.

Yes. You also do a PAST as event 1 at the Prep Course.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Wow. I was surprised that an Army officer would publicly critique the Marine Corps training standards for its officers. Surprised that is until I read further and found that she is retired, and was never an infantry officer. Either was I, so I've no opinion to offer on The Corps OCS other to say that I might be more interested in what the Colonel had to say if she actually had experience in the area.

First obvious "click bait" story I've seen from The Times in a while.

Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says

 

[Totentanz]

Wow. I was surprised that an Army officer would publicly critique the Marine Corps training standards for its officers. Surprised that is until I read further and found that she is retired, and was never an infantry officer. Either was I, so I've no opinion to offer on The Corps OCS other to say that I might be more interested in what the Colonel had to say if she actually had experience in the area.

First obvious "click bait" story I've seen from The Times in a while.

Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says

COL Haring's writing (as a whole body of work) is full of weakly-supported clickbait opinions.

 

[policemedic]

COL Haring's writing (as a whole body of work) is full of weakly-supported clickbait opinions.

Not to mention primarily agenda driven.

 

[Johca]

TAPAS in the current AFECD available on MYPERS, dated AFECD, 31 October 2016 does disclose TAPAS requirement has been dropped for some AFSCs, but not all. Column O (closed to women) also no longer exits as the AFSCs have technically opened to woman, with woman applying and passing the appropriate physical fitness requirements.

According to the Air Force Implementation Plan for Integrating Woman into Career Fields Engaged in Direct Ground Combat (attached), the physical/mental standards validation was supposed to be completed by 1 January 2016. Although AETC completed the physical/mental standards validation study months ago, no changes have yet to result from this study or changes that are being announced as to soon be implemented. Consequently the PAST worksheet available on AETC/A3T, dated 01 Sep 14 being used for PJ, CCT, SOWT, TACP, SERE. The EOD PAST has been rescinded and not being used

TACP is the only enlisted BA AFSC that has had a woman that reported to start training. An active-duty female officer has passed the CRO PAST, but her start date is still unknown as of 21 Sept 2016.

The Pararescue PAST is a term developed by TSgt TJ Bruce and SMSgt John Tobey when they ran the PJ Indoc (OL-J) during 1973. It came about as how can you hold students to a trained and qualified standard when you are actually training to improve ability and stamina to meet or exceed this standard. At this time it mirrored the Pararescue occupational performance requirement, annual physical fitness test, in ARRSR 55-11, Pararescue Operations. The current occupation performance requirements are now in AFI 10-3502, Volume1, Pararescue and Combat Rescue Officer Training.

PAST hasn't been used for STO/CRO applicants in that those desiring to become CRO and STOs go through a two phase screening and selection to get approval and a start date to enter training.

PAST isn't exactly used any longer for those submitting retraining applications to become PJs or CCT. The PJ retraining process as of 1 January 2016 mirrors the CCT process and methodology with the occupation performance requirements in the appropriate AFI being the standard rather than a PAST that is not prescribed as an actual occupation performance requirement.

Combat Control:
3.5.1.3. The following are mandatory for retraining candidates:
3.5.1.3.1. Grade of E-5 or below with less than 10 years Total Active Federal Military Service (Total Federal Military Service for Reserve of the Air Force personnel).
3.5.1.3.2. Current commander’s written recommendation.
3.5.1.3.3. Completion of the Combat Control Retraining Assessment Process.

Pararescue:
3.5.1.3. The following are mandatory for retraining candidates:
3.5.1.3.1. Grade of E-5 or below with less than 10 years Total Active Federal Military Service (Total Federal Military Service for Reserve of the Air Force personnel).
3.5.1.3.2. Current commander’s written recommendation.
3.5.1.3.3. Completion of the Pararescue Retraining Assessment.

 

[digrar]

Wow. I was surprised that an Army officer would publicly critique the Marine Corps training standards for its officers. Surprised that is until I read further and found that she is retired, and was never an infantry officer. Either was I, so I've no opinion to offer on The Corps OCS other to say that I might be more interested in what the Colonel had to say if she actually had experience in the area.

First obvious "click bait" story I've seen from The Times in a while.

Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says

“I'm trying to imagine the type of fighting and tactical task that requires you to move around administratively in an AO with 150-plus pounds on your back… Nothing is impossible, but trying to come up with a situation, mission and METT-T where this would be required is… a unicorn in my opinion.”

In our experience, a lot of this was driven by the Falklands. Battalions tabbing/yomping 15-30km to battle, carrying all the personal ammunition and crew served mortar rounds and link required to carry out the battle. While this isn't typical of engagements in the last 15 years, it's still pretty realistic task and one a serious Infantry Battalion should be able to achieve.

 

[Gunz]

A 170-pound infantry Soldier or Marine (I use that weight as a probable average), most likely will not be carrying 150 lbs. But he might have to carry 80-100 lbs over long distances and difficult terrain for days. Train harder than you fight, so the weight/distance sounds reasonable.

 

[digrar]

This passage is from David Kilcullen's "Counterinsurgency". David was OC Support Company 2nd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment. He's talking about his boys in the early days of INTERFET September 1999 in East Timor.

Later the next year, we were carrying similar loads on 3-5 day recon patrols.

 

[Yosemite]

PAST isn't exactly used any longer for those submitting retraining applications to become PJs or CCT. The PJ retraining process as of 1 January 2016 mirrors the CCT process and methodology with the occupation performance requirements in the appropriate AFI being the standard rather than a PAST that is not prescribed as an actual occupation performance requirement.

I am actively assembling my retraining package at this time and I received the following from MyPers:

Section I. AFSC Eligibility/Requirements

1C211 - COMBAT CONTROL -- Eligible
For AFSC: 1C211
1. The following medical requirements must be met IAW the AF Enlisted Classification Directory (AFECD).
a. PULHES must be 111111K
The below template is recommended to be included in the “Additional Comments” section of your AF Form 422.
AFSC: AFECD Req: Meets Req: Note:
1. 1c2X1 Para X.X.X Y / N
2.
3.
4.
5.
2. Class III Flight Physical memo, must include Physical Exam criteria for Army Airborne/Halo/Dive Schools IAW HQ AFORMOA/SGP Message DTG 13100Z Mar 96.
a. Available at local flight surgeon’s office
3. Provide an DD Form 2992 and DD Form 2808, physical qualification for air traffic control duty, marine diving duty, and parachute duty according to AFI 48-123 is required.
a. Contact your local Medical Treatment Facilities (MTF) Flight Medicine section
4. Qualification to bear firearms according to AFIs 31-207, 36-2226, and 13-219 is mandatory.
a. Provide copy of AF Form 522
5. Successful completion (within THREE months of qualification eligibility determination) of the Combat Control Team (CCT) Physical Ability and Stamina Test (PAST) located on the HQ AETC/A3T Portal page (PAST worksheet attached).
6. Minimum score of 30 required on CCT selection model completed in Tailored Adaptive Personality Assessment System (TAPAS).
7. AFSC Advisory Note 461 - Active Duty retrainees are required to complete the Combat Control Retrainee Assessment prior to entering pipeline training as a 1C211.
8. Current Unit Commander’s written recommendation.
9. RECORD REVIEW LIST
a. Log in to vMPF / Record Review/Update / View/Print All Pages
b. Save file as a PDF and upload to your myPers incident
10. LAST 3 EPRs (front & back)
11. Grade of E-5 or below with less than 10 years Total Active Federal Military Service.
12. AFCT: Mechanical 55 and General 55 (must meet both)
NOTES:
1. Specialty requires routine access to SECRET material or similar environment. For award and retention of AFSCs 1C2XX, completion of a current National Agency Check, Local Agency Checks and Credit (NACLC) according to AFI 31-501, Personnel Security Program Management.
NOTE: Award of the 3-skill level without a completed NACLC is authorized provided an interim Secret security clearance has been granted according to AFI 31-501.
a. Submit required documents to Unit Security Manager within 10 days of receipt of APPROVED RETRAINING AND CLASS DATE. All security clearance requirements identified in ETCA must be completed prior to Class Start Date or you run the risk of being returned to your home station and exhausting your FTA Retraining Opportunity.
2. Requires a Career Field Manager (CFM) Review

I will be taking my PAST within the next couple of weeks just because MyPers told me to do so. There may be a disconnect from what is actually happening in the PJ/CCT pipelines and what MyPers is handing out to their retrainee applicants. I do know that we no longer need a CC recommendation(as stated in an MFR put out earlier this year), so it is very possible that the retraining requirements are just not being updated.

 

[AWP]

Fick in One Bullet Away described his time as a Weapons Platoon commander in the early, early days of OEF. He said one patrol had them departing on LAV's but then being told to dismount. He said his Marines were carrying close to 200 pounds as a result. True or not? No clue, but I have to take him at face value. "War, war never changes" and yet people still insist the standards are too high? This fobbitt will never understand that logic.

 

[Teufel]

Fick in One Bullet Away described his time as a Weapons Platoon commander in the early, early days of OEF. He said one patrol had them departing on LAV's but then being told to dismount. He said his Marines were carrying close to 200 pounds as a result. True or not? No clue, but I have to take him at face value. "War, war never changes" and yet people still insist the standards are too high? This fobbitt will never understand that logic.

We are using OIF and OEF as a model for future wars but these were largely mechanized, FOB bound wars. The infantry marching standard was built for dismounted warfare where infantrymen will be tasked to frequently move from patrol base to patrol base with their protective equipment, water, ammunition, and whatever they need to dig in and bivouac. Imagine having to fight through the mountains of North Korea with your house on your back plus mortar rounds.

I'm surprised that this Army Colonel did not look at the Center for Army Lessons Learned study on combat loads in OEF: http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf

The study provided a ton of data, which unfortunately doesn't brief as well as vague and anonymous sources that reference unicorns.

I'll summarize this for the TL;DR crowd:
A typical soldier carried a 62 lb fighting load (M4, 210 rounds 5.56, interceptor vest with front & back SAPIs, a grenade, 2 canteens, a camelbak, and a first aid kid)

This jumped up to a 95 lb "approach march load" when they added an assault pack with a second camelback, an IV, poncho and poncho liner, 2 MREs and a poly-pro top. This was carried on longer 48-72 hour patrols.

The soldiers also had to carry a 120 lb "emergency approach load" with their main rucksacks with additional ammunition and their sleep systems when they moved patrol bases.

Add 20 lbs to the approach load outs for the SAW gunner, machine gunners, and mortarmen. These load outs required the soldiers to be resupplied 2-3 MREs and 8 quarts of water per day. You can imagine how the "emergency approach load out" would increase if the resupply rate was less frequent.

 

[Poccington]

Fick in One Bullet Away described his time as a Weapons Platoon commander in the early, early days of OEF. He said one patrol had them departing on LAV's but then being told to dismount. He said his Marines were carrying close to 200 pounds as a result. True or not? No clue, but I have to take him at face value. "War, war never changes" and yet people still insist the standards are too high? This fobbitt will never understand that logic.

It's pretty feasible, you think of a mortar detachment or GPMG SF detachment with frontline ammo etc. and things are gonna get very heavy, very quickly.

I hate these arguments for lowering standards. Terrain won't change based on gender, the physical demands of patrolling carrying full battle rattle won't change based on gender and the enemy will still fuck you up whether you're a man, woman or clown.

Anyone who thinks they're not negatively effecting the ability of a fighting force by enforcing gender specific standards or lowering standards to accomodate members of a certain gender, are out of their mind.

 

[Johca]

..AFSC Advisory Note 461 - Active Duty retrainees are required to complete the Combat Control Retrainee Assessment prior to entering pipeline training as a 1C211. ...

This is the basis of PAST is not exactly used any more as the final determinant of the applicant's retrain request being finalized with approved to enter pipeline training.

Prior to 1 January 2016 the opportunity to retrain from perspective of the gaining AFSC, Pararescue, was the applicant must pass the required PAST and the required medical examinations. Presuming applicant passed PAST and was medically cleared most of the disapproval was result of either (1) losing AFSC not releasing applicant or (2) applicant not qualified to reenlist (Selective reenlistment Program, High Year of Tenure), or (3) AF had no retrain quota for the applicant.

Read attached file Clarification of Crossflow Retrain Policy. It was the opening of the retrain applicant floodgates having potential to put more students into the Pararescue Development Course than the course had facilities and resources to train that forced implementation in January 2016 of the Pararescue retraining assessment course that in methodologies and procedures mirrors the CCT retraining assessment course. The opening of the retain applicant floodgates also forced classification policy of "Grade of E-5 or below with less than 10 years Total Active Federal Military Service (Total Federal Military Service for Reserve of the Air Force personnel) to be put in the AFECD. This policy mirrors what has been in place for CCT for the past several years.

The same prescreen assessment environment, but a bit more robust on leading performance, is encountered during the Phase 2 CRO and STO assessment.

 

[TLDR20]

Wouldn't it be cool if we had, like the NCOIC of the PJ pipeline on here...?

 

[Johca]

Considering, according to 9 Oct 2016 Military Times article-And the fattest U.S. Military Service is ..., obesity is increasing and fitness is declining it will be interesting what physical/mental standards will be five years from now.

The rack and stack of being the most obese and unfit service was Army #1, Air Force #2, Navy #3, USMC #4. According to article Navy was #3 only because it changed BMI and other standards to make it more difficult to fail weight and physical standards.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Wow. I was surprised that an Army officer would publicly critique the Marine Corps training standards for its officers. Surprised that is until I read further and found that she is retired, and was never an infantry officer. Either was I, so I've no opinion to offer on The Corps OCS other to say that I might be more interested in what the Colonel had to say if she actually had experience in the area.

First obvious "click bait" story I've seen from The Times in a while.

Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says

Ellen Haring has done more to negatively effect Army readiness through her political agenda caused by jealousy. Many would say it's because she never got a star, but I find that part hilarious because being a woman didn't stop Anne Dunwoody from making 4 stars.