Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[policemedic]

I don't know the clinical reason, but anecdotal information in the form of USPSA stage times shows they aren't as good.

Have you seen this in any instance? In my experience this is one are where they have been quite lacking.

I’m going to have to look at the USPSA data before I can comment intelligently, but you bring up an interesting point.

This is anecdotal as well, but I have seen women outshoot men with roughly the same levels of experience. At least one of them was a SWAT officer, and she had more shootings to her credit than others on her team.

I do remember some science behind this, but I want to find the citation(s) before I discusss it.

 

[amlove21]

I’m going to have to look at the USPSA data before I can comment intelligently...

Interested to see what you turn up.

 

[Gunz]

... if the military is serious about integrating women, they need to accommodate for the differences...

"Accommodating" means making it easier, Serenity. There is nothing easy about combat. There's a reason training for combat is tough. It's so you have a chance of surviving. It's so you can do your job and kill the enemy under extraordinarily difficult circumstances. I spent almost every day of my tour--up until the day I was wounded and medevaced--in the bush with a small team of Marines. Everything we needed we carried on our backs, through thigh-deep flooded rice paddies, jungles, in ungodly humidity, tripwires and boobytraps everywhere, a constant source of stress, going weeks with very little sleep, filthy for months at a time--literally months with only a brown water river to bathe in--ringworm, immersion foot, leeches, mosquitoes, armies of flies, and the constant threat of the next treeline erupting in ambush.

No one...no one can be "accommodated" for combat. Everybody needs to pack the gear. Everybody has to be there to deliver their share of firepower, to carry their share of the load. "Accommodate" and you weaken the team. Weaken the team and good people die.

 

[Etype]

But are these standards actually practical or just a rite of passage? From what I’ve read on this site and else where, it’s comes across like a lot of the training in the military causes injuries. How does that make sense? Why the heck is the female failure rate so high?

The standards are practical; high and practical standards are a rite of passage.
Military training does cause injury, as does training in college and professional sports.
Female failure rate is high because they often can't attain the same standards are men.


You seem quite befuddled by questions whose answers are obvious.

 

[Etype]

I n. I have a job to do that I enjoy. I’ve never whined as much as the kind of whining I read here.

I'll bite. What is your job?

 

[Chopstick]

The more I think of this the more I wonder, did the WM's at least salute the Colonel? To me it would have been a much more powerful picture if it was a photo of the Colonel welcoming the young Marines to SOI (or was it just MCT?) and them saluting each other. I'm picturing the Sgt. Major thinking how has it come to this. A PFC greeted by the Colonel as if they were drinking buddies who have not seen each other for years.

It's MCT West. Not SO I. My Marine Parents group went off the spools when many of them thought the women were attending SO I. It was a bit amusing . Not to say that won't be the next headline and dog and pony show from Pendleton.

 

[digrar]

For the record, I’ve been looking into my own backyard more as it’s a way to compare. I like the stuff I’m seeing on our end; I think the ADF is making a genuine effort to integrate women.

I don't like the stuff I'm seeing. I see defence setting these women up for failure at every step. By having "a little more encouragement" they're creating division within the ranks. Any young male digger that marches into a unit knows he's had to fight every inch of the way to get his slot. Every woman that has got to the same point has just shown up, after getting half a dozen or more incentives to coerce them into signing up for the job. That creates division.

 

[Gunz]

What irks me the most about this issue is that the politicians and civilians who are pushing its implementation are thinking numbers not lives, with very little thought of the possible consequences. This isn't picking players for the local softball league. It's serious life and death shit. The women who make it through the pipeline must be equal to the task.

 

[DC]

It’s about quota and politics. Anyone who can swim the line by passing the same standards of qualification has a place in any position. All others are political pawns.

 

[Topkick]

While I agree that anyone who can meet a set standard should be provided with the opportunity, let's face facts. Men and women are not the same. Although I have a degree in Kinesiology, I didn't need it to figure this out. I have met women who are probably up to the challenge of humping a 60 lb rucksack for 26 miles but they were very few and far between. I have a hard time believing that standards don't get doctored to accommodate females, but I am watching this thread with an open mind, so you'll get no argument from me.

 

[Devildoc]

While I agree that anyone who can meet a set standard should be provided with the opportunity, let's face facts. Men and women are not the same. Although I have a degree in Kinesiology, I didn't need it to figure this out. I have met women who are probably up to the challenge of humping a 60 lb rucksack for 26 miles but they were very few and far between. I have have a hard time believing that standards don't get doctored to accommodate females, but I am watching this thread with an open mind, so you'll get no argument from me.

I have met women like this. That seems to the proponent's rallying cry: women can do it. Sure, they might be able to do in in school or in a controlled environment. But can they do it day after day, month after month? Men with higher bone density and more muscle break down at a high rate in these fields; women will break down faster. BUT...make the standards the same, and give them their shot.

 

[Gunz]

...I have a degree in Kinesiology...

I have a degree in mixology from the International School of Bartending.

Just sayin. And it's gender neutral.

 

[Topkick]

I have a degree in mixology from the International School of Bartending.

Just sayin. And it's gender neutral.

That requires some OJT, I suppose?

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I thought this follow up article was worth the read.

First female Ranger grads open up about the aftermath and joining the infantry

 

[Mad boomer]

Last week a female reported to my sons unit. She's 4.11, 106 pounds. 1 week, out on injury, unable to assign her to be a driver. She can't lift the Bradley main gun barrel, at all. As of yesterday one female who is married to another private was caught having sex in the barracks with another male on duty. The male is being processed out the female received disciplinary action.

 

[racing_kitty]

Last week a female reported to my sons unit. She's 4.11, 106 pounds. 1 week, out on injury, unable to assign her to be a driver. She can't lift the Bradley main gun barrel, at all. As of yesterday one female who is married to another private was caught having sex in the barracks with another male on duty. The male is being processed out the female received disciplinary action.

 

[x SF med]

I thought this follow up article was worth the read.

First female Ranger grads open up about the aftermath and joining the infantry

Meet and/or exceed standards, keep your job... easy.

 

[Frank S.]

That requires some OJT, I suppose?

If it fits in your mitt, you must drink it.

 

[NikNifSik]

While I agree that anyone who can meet a set standard should be provided with the opportunity, let's face facts. Men and women are not the same. Although I have a degree in Kinesiology, I didn't need it to figure this out. I have met women who are probably up to the challenge of humping a 60 lb rucksack for 26 miles but they were very few and far between. I have a hard time believing that standards don't get doctored to accommodate females, but I am watching this thread with an open mind, so you'll get no argument from me.

Topkick, you are absolutely correct. I think our major failure was not coming up with a way to properly implement women into SOF. I understand why women want to serve and want to be a part of SOF's mission. We should have figured out how best to utilize that motivation, like many of our counterparts have to strengthen the force overall. By not giving them a specific seat at the table, they are being forced into one of ours. Women most definitely have a place and offer a specific capability in Special Operations, I just believe it isnt on a traditional detachment/team/troop.

 

[Mad boomer]

I'm just gonna leave this right here...