Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[Ooh-Rah]

@Chontair

From my understanding,

At 16 years old you understand nothing in regards to this thread...understand where your lane is, right now you are so far out of it you have rolled your bike in the ditch.

Do not respond, move on. And if you have not done so yet....read this:

A Protocol Primer for ShadowSpear

 

[J.]

We have 2 female Tank Crewman now, the first one arrived a little over a year ago and there is no one here that could say anything negative about her in a tactical and technical sense.

She has obvious biological shortcomings in physical strength but I have yet to meet another female Marine that cares as much and try’s as hard as she does. She is held to the same standard as we are and she meets it.

Now with that said, there are still situations in which she requires assistance, most parts and tank specific tools weigh in between 40-200lbs. Even so, In all training evolutions she has participated in I have yet to hear of failures because of that.

I am not for or against women in Combat Arms, I am for fair and equal high standards for all. Lowering the standards to accommodate weaker people, not men or women, people.. is in my eyes direct sabatoge of the mission.

 

[Box]

Don't be confused by the concept of equality........

Warriors LOVE equality.

It is what motivates the warrior to train hard and endure sacrifice. If my enemy is equal to me, I must train harder to defeat them - man, woman, or child. Warriors strive to be MORE EQUAL than their foe. It's called WINNING and winning isn't always fair. Equal opportunity is one of the most noble of human endeavors - it draws forth the best that humankind has to offer. Unfortunately, it isn't equal opportunity that our elected representatives and activist seek - it is equality of outcome that they seek. Equality of Outcome is why gender norming was integrated into the Army APFT decades ago - it is why standards are massaged now - to give everyone a fair shot at the finish line.

The tragedy of buckling to political activism and mindless emotion in the spirit of fairness is that societies 'finish lines' respect no man...
...or woman
...or whatever other gender we have decided to recognize

Finish lines don't follow social media, they don't listen to speeches, they don't exhibit emotion; finish lines simply wait on the outcome. The hundred meter dash will always have a finish line 100 meters away from the starting blocks. Real "equality" ends when the starter pistol is fired. Only raw talent and effort will get you to the finish line first when EVERYONE is lined up shoulder-to-shoulder. One gender can no longer compete on the world stage unless they can reach that finish line in under 10 seconds. Another gender has a world record that has stood for a full 30 years that is a full second behind.
-Imagine two competitors of different genders leaving the starting blocks equally, and both crossing the finish line EXACTLY 10.01 seconds later; one runner would shatter a world record while leaving the other watching the finals from his living room.

...and race - it’s difficult to speak candidly about equality if we aren't looking at the whole picture.

There is a race equality issue as well at play. So, let’s stay with the 100 meter dash metaphor: it was 2003 before a competitor of non-African descent broke the 10 second barrier and 2017 before a Caucasian broke the 10-second barrier. Everyone was equal at the starting line - but 100 meters is a long way to go when you are competing against other human beings that want to get there first. Nobody is going to give you a head start when there are consequences to NOT being first. These results are not a product of racism or misogyny - they are the results of countless generations of biological development. Just like in track and field - equality only exists at the line of departure. Just like in track and field, equality in military affairs ends when the first shot is fired - after that - REAL equality decides the victor. Somebody is always "more equal" when the finish line is the difference between life and death.

Finish lines only respect winners.

 

[x SF med]

To follow on to @Box 's post.... many military courses after a selection phase will start with an instructor saying: "You were good enough to get here, are you good enough to graduate?" As one of my instructors repeated, constantly, "Adversity equalizes, and if you aren't equal, you are gone."

 

[256]

Don't be confused by the concept of equality........

Warriors LOVE equality.

Equality of Outcome is why gender norming was integrated into the Army APFT decades ago - it is why standards are massaged now - to give everyone a fair shot at the finish line.

When you say "massaged now" are you meaning that the female and male standards are different? I've always stood against females in combat roles, the PT standards are a great example of how men and women are drastically different physically. I've heard the argument for one standard, which is a great idea but you have to start with the very basic of "standards" meaning the PT test. Make PT standards the same for both genders and I may jump on board.

There is a race equality issue as well at play. So, let’s stay with the 100 meter dash metaphor: it was 2003 before a competitor of non-African descent broke the 10 second barrier and 2017 before a Caucasian broke the 10-second barrier. Everyone was equal at the starting line - but 100 meters is a long way to go when you are competing against other human beings that want to get there first. Nobody is going to give you a head start when there are consequences to NOT being first. These results are not a product of racism or misogyny - they are the results of countless generations of biological development. Just like in track and field - equality only exists at the line of departure. Just like in track and field, equality in military affairs ends when the first shot is fired - after that - REAL equality decides the victor. Somebody is always "more equal" when the finish line is the difference between life and death.

Finish lines only respect winners.

It's extremely frustrating to see Military Leadership (CIBs and metals for battles fought gleaming from their Blues) back these ludicrous "equally" ideas. They've been fighting and commanding for this fight going on 17 years, they clearly understand and have implemented your above thoughts why then do they agree to it?

I have zero issues with females going to Ranger School, it's a leadership school, send anyone. I'd like to see the numbers of females going vs females passing and compare them to males. Only to show a point about practicalities, which again is clearly on display when referring back to the core standard, the physical fitness test.

Excellent post, @Box

 

[Box]

When you say "massaged now" are you meaning that the female and male standards are different? [/USER]

Indeed they are; for example take ANY career field that allows male and females to "compete equally and fairly" for promotion to the next pay grade:

A 22 year old male soldier that does 39 push-ups in 2 minutes has FAILED his PT test.
A 22 year old female soldier that does 39 push-ups in 2 minutes has passed and scored 90 points of a possible 100 on her PT test.

A 22 year old male soldier that runs 2-miles in 16 minutes and 42 seconds has FAILED his PT test.
A 22 year old female soldier that runs 2-miles in 16 minutes and 42 seconds has passed and scored 89 points of a possible 100 on her PT test.

Sit-Ups are "equally scored" for both genders. it is worth noting though that because of the physiological construction of the female body, females are better built to do sit-ups because of their different center of gravity. So women have an advantage in the sit-up event bit are scored equally...
So there's that.

Now, put those scores together so that equal results have been posted by both troops and one of them is going to get labeled as a shit-bag, he will get a poor counseling statement and possibly a career crushing mark on his next NCOER, he will most likely be put into a remedial PT program, and he will not be eligible to appear in front of the Staff Sergeant promotion board.

The female will post a final score of 270 and will be lauded as a stud-ette for scoring a 270 on her PT test. She will get much better marks on her NCOER, and she will have a big smile on her face when she is answering questions at the Staff Sergeant promotion board.

Both crossed the finish line at the same time - but one is more equal on paper AND in the eyes of our nations politically motivated leadership.
One will be promoted into a higher position of leadership and placed in charge.

...and when the REAL finish line demands payment in full - well: equality

 

[256]

Indeed they are; for example take ANY career field that allows male and females to "compete equally and fairly" for promotion to the next pay grade:

A 22 year old male soldier that does 39 push-ups in 2 minutes has FAILED his PT test.
A 22 year old female soldier that does 39 push-ups in 2 minutes has passed and scored 90 points of a possible 100 on her PT test.

A 22 year old male soldier that runs 2-miles in 16 minutes and 42 seconds has FAILED his PT test.
A 22 year old female soldier that runs 2-miles in 16 minutes and 42 seconds has passed and scored 89 points of a possible 100 on her PT test.

Sit-Ups are "equally scored" for both genders. it is worth noting though that because of the physiological construction of the female body, females are better built to do sit-ups because of their different center of gravity. So women have an advantage in the sit-up event bit are scored equally...
So there's that.

Now, put those scores together so that equal results have been posted by both troops and one of them is going to get labeled as a shit-bag, he will get a poor counseling statement and possibly a career crushing mark on his next NCOER, he will most likely be put into a remedial PT program, and he will not be eligible to appear in front of the Staff Sergeant promotion board.

The female will post a final score of 270 and will be lauded as a stud-ette for scoring a 270 on her PT test. She will get much better marks on her NCOER, and she will have a big smile on her face when she is answering questions at the Staff Sergeant promotion board.

Both crossed the finish line at the same time - but one is more equal on paper AND in the eyes of our nations politically motivated leadership.
One will be promoted into a higher position of leadership and placed in charge.

...and when the REAL finish line demands payment in full - well: equality

Couldn’t agree more

 

[CDG]

Just saw this article from Task and Purpose. I think I saw the one part about female DIs sleeping with recruits, and each other, somewhere else recently...... Or maybe that was just cutting edge adult entertainment. Nevermind.

I Tried To Make Women Marines Tougher. It Was The Hardest Fight Of My Career

 

[Kraut783]

There was a female DS at Fort McClellan, AL in 1986....would sleep with some of her soldiers, no one said anything until graduation. Lucky bastards.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Just saw this article from Task and Purpose. I think I saw the one part about female DIs sleeping with recruits, and each other, somewhere else recently...... Or maybe that was just cutting edge adult entertainment. Nevermind.

I Tried To Make Women Marines Tougher. It Was The Hardest Fight Of My Career

This is a fantastic article. Sadly I knew how it would end when I read:

The colonel didn’t seem too interested in what I had to say, but I wrote down the words he emphasized: “I prize harmony among my staff above all else.”

 

[J.]

Now the second female Tanker is currently UA after one week in the fleet, which is her second time being UA in her short career. Her and the one I mentioned before, are living examples of what we are discussing here.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Now the second female Tanker is currently UA after one week in the fleet

Be sure to report back when she is found and claims it was ‘the culture’ of her unit that forced her to go UA. Also known as...’the Bergdahl defense’.

 

[Box]

There was a female DS at Fort McClellan, AL in 1986....would sleep with some of her soldiers, no one said anything until graduation. Lucky bastards.

So... was she hot?

 

[Devildoc]

Because > 90% of my service as a corpsman was with all-male units I never had a whole lot of dealings with female Marines until my last duty as a corpsman before I was commissioned. That was a supply company, and the company was about 15% female. Of those, half just didn't belong. They could not run from here to there, and in the field? Forget about it. Some of them were promoted so they could chill with the HQ platoon, some of them were sleeping with the leadership (a couple were damn hot), most of them had medical waivers of some sort. It was eye-opening.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Some of them were promoted so they could chill with the HQ platoon, some of them were sleeping with the leadership (a couple were damn hot), most of them had medical waivers of some sort.

3 1/2 years on Okinawa and I witnessed all of the above on a near daily basis.

As I mentioned somewhere else in this very thread, until the officer corps comes down on the staff NCOs (who were the main perpetrators of fucking around with the WM’s), this will not stop. And, the women Marines will never gain the respect they seem to ask for it from the male Marines when they continue this behavior.

Did all the women Marines I know sleep with staff NCOs? No but, 99.99% of them used their sexuality to get out of formations, pass field days without doing any work, better duty assignments, etc.

 

[Topkick]

3 1/2 years on Okinawa and I witnessed all of the above on a near daily basis.

As I mentioned somewhere else in this very thread, until the officer corps comes down on the staff NCOs (who were the main perpetrators of fucking around with the WM’s), this will not stop. And, the women Marines will never gain the respect they seem to ask for it from the male Marines when they continue this behavior.

Did all the women Marines I know sleep with staff NCOs? No but, 99.99% of them used their sexuality to get out of formations, pass field days without doing any work, better duty assignments, etc.

It won't ever totally stop, it's what men and women do when they are together. Nature dictates.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

It won't ever totally stop, it's what men and women do when they are together. Nature dictates.

Agreed...but:

In the Military (at least The Corps) it is near acceptable behavior. No one can convince me that senior leadership could not put a near “all stop” on this if they wanted to.

What makes jaded Lance Corporals hate life and resent WM’s more than usual? When they witness the above every day, and KNOW that the same Gunny who failed their room for field day is the same Gunny who just passed the two girls next door, even though they didn’t do shit to prepare...because they were both at The Gunny’s House all weekend.

AND...don’t anyone tell me that the officers are ignorant about this and “just didn’t know...”

 

[Topkick]

Yep and anyone paying attention knows the officers are playing their own version of the same reindeer games.

 

[KiloPapa]

So I guess that’s an international thing then.

 

[Mad boomer]

Well in this weeks news from my Son's unit: 1 female now pregnant, by a member of her squad, unknown which one at this point, since she admits to having sexual contact with 4 of them thus far. Another female was caught on duty, having sex with her squad leader, a SSG two weeks ago. My son has done 3.5 years thus far active duty. He is ETSing this month. He was offered a SGT / E-5, he opted out and will return to the private sector. He has no intention of re-enlisting in the military, ever. Every one of my expectations for this social experimentation has gone perfectly to script. Rah go Army!