Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

@ThunderHorse , I didn't go to the full commando course, but I spent quality time with the RMs. Best time of my life but I digress. I echo xSF med, display the standards and allow people to meet them or not; and how they did it was equally impressive: no prep courses, no pageantry, no specialness. Apologies to Nike, "just do it."

But I see what happened across the pond as a mirror to what will happen here: women might earn the badge/beret/tab/patch, but the pace and rigor of the unit will far exceed their capability to be a productive member, and they will self-select to support units or elsewhere.
 
This is to @256 as well. Capt. Goddard is just the most prominent story of a woman in combat here recently. She was the FOO, not exactly just calling in fire; they were forward and she was manning the GPMG in the hatch, exposed. As for enlisted ranks, I know of many women in the infantry, armoured recce, artillery and even combat engineers. Women have been equally serving for quite some time here.

RIP Capt Goddard.

So you're saying it works in Canada. No issues with the male/female sexual dynamic in the regular ranks? Or issues of undue influence or favoritism with relation to sex? Do you think it's because it has been SOP
for a long time and these issues have been worked out?
 
RIP Capt Goddard.

So you're saying it works in Canada. No issues with the male/female sexual dynamic in the regular ranks? Or issues of undue influence or favoritism with relation to sex? Do you think it's because it has been SOP
for a long time and these issues have been worked out?

Oh there's issues but we also permit LGBTQ to serve and that dynamic is in play as well. Any favouritism is usually caught eventually but we also have serving spouses and policies to keep them separate. It wasn't the best when I joined in the mid 90's. Even in comms, my subunit was only male and the first female brought in the year after. It didn't take long before it all evened out. From my experience there's more BS in support units and on FOB's while on deployment.
 
Having served in all four branches of the Norwegian military by now, from a private to an NCO, my experiences with females are, shall we say, «mixed».
Note, most of the NOR military is based on conscription, a draft. Our conscription model turned gender-neutral a few years ago.
 
My son separated from service two weeks ago and is now going to a seasonal wildland firefighter team until October then to college. Two female PFCs at in his platoon were awarded ARCOMs. They have been in service less than 1 year; 8 1/2 months to be exact, neither has been deployed. The awards were given for being in the unit for that period of time, meeting minimal performance and adherence to standards. These are his (my sons) words, not mine and I didn't read the citations. But there was not exceptional contributing, and or distinguishing actions associated with the awards received. Now perhaps these are not all the facts, but regardless, during my tenure in the US Army I have never seen a PFC receive this award, much less two PFCs. I have written and recommended awards for my personnel, and even for combat actions. This is not my understanding of the awards process and regulations. Perhaps I'm dated and not up to speed with the new Army standards. Nor have ever I seen a person given this award for normal acceptable minimum performance. Perhaps females meeting minimal performance standards exceptional and worthy of an ARCOM these days... Rah, Go USMC, Semper Fi!
 
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My son separated from service two weeks ago and is now going to a seasonal wildland firefighter team until October then to college. Two female PFCs at in his platoon were awarded ARCOMs. They have been in service less than 1 year; 8 1/2 months to be exact, neither has been deployed. The awards were given for being in the unit for that period of time, meeting minimal performance and adherence to standards. These are his (my sons) words, not mine and I didn't read the citations. But there was not exceptional contributing, and or distinguishing actions associated with the awards received. Now perhaps these are not all the facts, but regardless, during my tenure in the US Army I have never seen a PFC receive this award, much less two of PFCs. I have written and recommended awards for my personnel, and even for combat actions. This is not my understanding of the awards process and regulations. Perhaps I'm dated and not up to speed with the new Army standards. Nor have I seen a person given this award for normal acceptable minimum performance. Perhaps females meeting minimal performance standards exceptional and worthy of an ARCOM these days... Rah, Go USMC, Semper Fi!


This is only going to get worse across the board, not just in the military. And the #MeToo hysteria is ramping it up. Government agencies, corporations, will all be scrambling to hire/promote/advance/reward candidates and employees based on race and gender...two factors that have absolutely nothing to do with ability, skill, talent or knowledge. This is why the PRC, a hardcore meritocracy, will eventually leave us with our pants around our ankles...because they advance people who have passed numerous exams and who are extremely good at what they do.

I'm sorry about your son's disappointing experiences in the Army...but thank you for updating us with glimpses into the Army's workaday world of social engineering.
 
This world we live in will never get better because we keep creating *classes* of people simply to award them something or to make them feel special.

We are indeed a perpetual mess now....
 
I'm sorry about your son's disappointing experiences in the Army...but thank you for updating us with glimpses into the Army's workaday world of social engineering.

He enjoyed the experience thoroughly, and saw it for what it is, the ground truth. I felt it was instructive and the truth that will never be spoken outside or inside the military. I really don't think anyone here is surprised or shocked. All my own / personal observations and opinions of this social experiment while serving were again validated.
 
Not necessarily related to women in combat, but I just read a Facebook post of a 19 year old girl asking for a "truck". For free, because she needs more freedom to get places and so she can make her self a better life.

I obviously raged a bit and told her she needs to work and buy her own truck, etc, etc. But the kiddos came out of the wood work on how I was picking on this poor girl. Mind you, I didn't cuss her, I didn't tell her how fucking stupid she is, I just gave her the I walked and bummed rides to get to work until I could afford a truck, speech. And holy shit apparently I'm some kinda internet bully for speaking a little fucking truth.

None of these kids even saw anything wrong with a 19 year old asking for a free truck.

They have zero pride or care, just give it to me free or scream and act like a victim. These are the kids joining the military now, out in the work place, voting at the polls.

God help us.
 
Not necessarily related to women in combat, but I just read a Facebook post of a 19 year old girl asking for a "truck". For free, because she needs more freedom to get places and so she can make her self a better life.

I obviously raged a bit and told her she needs to work and buy her own truck, etc, etc. But the kiddos came out of the wood work on how I was picking on this poor girl. Mind you, I didn't cuss her, I didn't tell her how fucking stupid she is, I just gave her the I walked and bummed rides to get to work until I could afford a truck, speech. And holy shit apparently I'm some kinda internet bully for speaking a little fucking truth.

None of these kids even saw anything wrong with a 19 year old asking for a free truck.

They have zero pride or care, just give it to me free or scream and act like a victim. These are the kids joining the military now, out in the work place, voting at the polls.

God help us.

I've been on a pretty big University campus for the past 4 years now and I can 100% tell you that it is not an uncommon thing... the amount of entitled kids asking for handouts and gimmes here is ridiculous. What's even worse is when you combine the sense of entitlement with brittle feelings.
 
Not necessarily related to women in combat, but I just read a Facebook post of a 19 year old girl asking for a "truck". For free, because she needs more freedom to get places and so she can make her self a better life.

I obviously raged a bit and told her she needs to work and buy her own truck, etc, etc. But the kiddos came out of the wood work on how I was picking on this poor girl. Mind you, I didn't cuss her, I didn't tell her how fucking stupid she is, I just gave her the I walked and bummed rides to get to work until I could afford a truck, speech. And holy shit apparently I'm some kinda internet bully for speaking a little fucking truth.

None of these kids even saw anything wrong with a 19 year old asking for a free truck.

They have zero pride or care, just give it to me free or scream and act like a victim. These are the kids joining the military now, out in the work place, voting at the polls.

God help us.

Heartless bastard. What the hell is wrong with you??

:)
 
And now, for the moment we've all been waiting for!!!



You might not think he knows what he's talking about, but I damned sure do. A brief CV for the uninitiated, dear Serenity: just over 10.5 years active service in two career fields, one of which was most definitely "male dominated," while the other was simply a male-predominant unit; four deployments to the Iraq theater of operations, two apiece for each career field; and while I have certainly never been in a combat arms unit, I have been in more than one situation that would warrant the awarding of a Combat Action Badge in the manner that it was originally intended to be granted (NOT just because a rocket sailed over the other end of my FOB). Oh, and just to check the other requisite boxes on that SJW resume, I'm a cisgendered bisexual female that served the entirety of my career in the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" military. So go ahead and have a seat, because I'm uniquely qualified in whatever matrix you've got planned to trot out. I have been "That Girl," although I was more often referred to as "the unicorn," or "one of the guys."

You said you were waiting on a stronger female military voice to make sense of this thread. This indicates that either you had no idea who I am when you read my posts, or you discounted my posts in this thread outright. Is it because I didn't agree with you? Or is it because I'm not dressed up as June Cleaver in camoflauge, therefore I'm not feminine? That's rhetorical. Stay seated, if you please.

It's been taken, alright. Stay seated.


There's a great deal of politicking and "back story" involved in that one handshake. The generals aren't in that picture because they want to extend a warm and hearty handshake to their troops, not by any stretch of the imagination. They are there because a dog-and-pony show was scheduled so that they could verify that their directives from the Pentagon are being followed. That's it, nothing more. I've had to do several of those dog-and-pony shows during my time, and I got tagged for several of them because I was female (y'know, because diversity).

You know what doesn't get done while people are preparing for these dog-and-pony shows? Training, that's what. Every moment spent getting the requisite number of bodies to make some jackass with a constellation on his/her collar happy could be spent honing a perishable skill or increasing the body of knowledge required to excel in the profession of arms. Instead, everyone has to line up, look happy, and shake hands with some functional alcoholic that won't even remember a single name by the time he gets back into his vehicle. Yeah, that's not a waste of time...

As far as demanding special privileges go, you'd be surprised. While the first signal company I was assigned to was predominantly male, the battalion had a large female contingent. It was my "absolute pleasure" [/sarc] to serve with these fine specimens of victimhood. During my time with these female service members, I had to testify in two 15-6 investigations; the first was for a blatantly false accusation of sexual harassment against a male soldier, and the second was for a hostile work environment complaint that arose when the female in question made lewd and obscene jokes towards male members, then filed a complaint when she became the subject of the exact same joke in the exact same conversation. I was also sexually harassed twice by females, to include having my very own lesbian stalker.

I also observed, during my first deployment, a female SFC bragging about initiating a sexual harassment complaint against a male service member because he had an erection in his sleep. IN. HIS. FUCKING. SLEEP. When the proscribed uniform for sleeping is the Army Physical Fitness Uniform (shorts and a t-shirt), and she was walking through the male sleep area at a time when night-shift workers were asleep in their cots, what the hell did she think she was going to see?

Then there were the females that requested that they never pull 12-hour guard duty at night because "eeeeew, it's unsafe for girls." The request was granted, never mind that they each were in possession of a fully functional M-16 with a minimum of 120 rounds of 5.56mm ball ammunition. Do you think that they'd have the balls to shoot the enemy on a battlefield if they didn't have the guts to shoot an attempted rapist? Then there were the requests to reschedule a PT test because they were on their periods; thankfully, those were denied.

I could go on for days, but I don't have that much space.



Not all women think alike. The women that think in a way suitable to thrive in combat arms or other, more highly specialized professions, often are told they "think like a guy." They tend to not have as many problems integrating as the girly-girls who are more concerned with bringing the "grrrrl power!!!11!eleventy" to the profession of arms. They also aren't exactly the paragon of femininity when in uniform. At home is a different story, but actual shooting wars aren't fought in the living room.

That isn't to say that there won't be problems. There certainly are still misogynists in the world today, in and out of the Army. I had my run-ins with a few, to include a platoon sergeant that hinted at my failure as woman because I was out chasing bombs instead of living la vida housewife. However, if that female otherwise meets the standards as set by the Army, there are already leaders in place that would see the situation and handle the situation accordingly. You'd be surprised at how many simply DO NOT CARE what the chromosomal package consists of, so long as he or she can just do the damned job. They just elect to keep quiet; they aren't the fucking white knights you're looking for to effect the social change you desire.

As far as physical standards go, lighter body armor that is as effective as any that we currently wear, lighter packs that don't break and can carry the load, lighter radios that are still as rugged and operational as their heavier counterparts, etc. would be just as much of a boon to male soldiers as it would to females. That's the only way you're going to get around the physical requirements being what they are. There are some things, however, that can't be made any smaller or lighter without compromising effectiveness. The bomb suit is one, bullets are another. If you can come up with something lighter and at least as effective (if not more so), then please engineer it and make it available so that ALL fighters can benefit from it. Or should we only make all the "combat lite" gear available to females? How is that fair?

Physiology is a motherfucker. It's not sexist to say that a woman's body breaks down at a faster rate than a man's when performing the same amount of physical work in a controlled environment. I've mentioned my injuries in past posts in this thread and some others, and they are mainly the result of years of extreme use. By extreme, I mean lifting 500lb truck hoods -- even with hydraulic assistance -- on a 26 ton vehicle several times a day for two years, humping 100lb field safes across motor pools because nobody was around to help, schlepping multiple 85lb antenna bags to and from when your retrans site has to relocate yet again, throwing 90lb robots in the back of a truck, lifting a soldier that outweighed me by nearly 100lb (without body armor) into a fireman's carry and move him to the other side of the building, and all of this at an age where most soldiers are already starting to plan their retirement (I enlisted in my mid-20's). That kind of activity breaks down males of the same age, and proper nutrition, supplements, and personal fitness can only delay the damage so long. That I was so old when I finally wore out makes me a statistical aberration, an outlier, an anecdote, not a reliable example of the majority of females.

Saying all of that qualifies me to ask you this question: if a male and a female of the same age, perform the same work for the same amount of time in the same conditions, and the female body breaks down first, what good is she to the unit in a combat capacity? Secondly, from a budget standpoint, how much would it cost to train and install females in a unit where they wear out faster than the males, meaning that the rate of replacement would be greater?



Guess I'm going to get some warning points, but this is going to be worth it. Bitch, sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. I'll be goddamned to the bowels of undying hell before I let some ungrateful whelp tell me that I don't have the fucking will to succeed because I stepped into a male-dominated career field that was open to women long before the combat arms. I stepped into my role in spite of all the bullshit, as did all the other females that completed the same training as myself. Bombs don't give a flying fuck in the sky what your fucking gender is; physics is physics, and dead is dead.

I stepped in to save lives and break shit, and that's exactly what I did (shooting back was just a party favor). I had leaders that saw through the bullshit and did what was right. Not just new kids, I'm talking old timers, prior infantry types, that saw through the misogynist shit and treated me fairly. While it will take time for the historically male professions to come around to the same level that my job was, it is not impossible. Your blanket statement takes a serious, cholera-ridden shit upon the ethics and morals of the male leaders that I have had the pleasure of serving with during my tenure. These are men who have fought, and sometimes died, in service of a nation that is filled with the ungrateful, whiny likes of you.

War is a messy profession, and it will always have elements of raw violence and outright barbarity. That's why it's fucking WAR!!! The inherent barbarity is exactly why it should be a last resort, not a social experiment to prove that ovaries beat testicles 3:1 in a taste test; it's fucking death, not the Pepsi fucking Challenge. You think I had better things to do in my life than blow up 1200lb of shit in one go and not go to jail? Except for sex, I can't think of a whole lot that was better than that. That's why I was cut out for that life, and little girly-girls are not. It's so much more than what your myopic worldview can understand. Read some history, some Sun-Tzu, educate yourself about the great military minds, read up on Joan of Arc, learn what war actually fucking is, and then come back with an informed argument as opposed to some fucking social media talking points.


I'm ready for my thread ban now. Good night.

<mod note: thread edited slightly for language --mara>
Well, I hope you’ve been well, Kitty. Thank you for your very comprehensive response too. I only came to check now. That is the longest ass response I’ve had in my lifetime of being online.

It’ll take me a few days to remember what this thread was about, to read your response, and a few more days to absorb your words. I might try to reply, but I think somebody will ban me again for replying to this. So depending if it’s permanent or not, I may or may not be able to respond. But I appreciate the effort in trying to put me in my place. Although, you should know I’m not exactly precious where you think I should stand or sit. I’m just interested and none of this is being taken personally by me.

Although, a quick skim, and I’m not sure why you’re yelling at me, calling me a bitch, ungrateful or whiney. To be clear, I have a lot of adjectives I’d love to use on many of you (well, not you personally), but I try to be polite. Anyway, I’ll copy’n’paste your response in a word doc and read it later. Not sure when I’ll be back or if I’m allowed back. I might end up reading Sun-Tzu, and who knows how long it’ll take me to read that while I educate myself.

Take care,
S
 
Omg...It’s almost 2000 words!!

That’s a chapter for me. If this is a ploy to load me with so much homework that I’ll run away scared. It’s working.
 
Enough. From everyone. Feeding Serenity's need for attention is counter-productive. This thread is about a specific topic. I am going to clean up some posts, and then we will stay on track.
 
Do you have a source on this other than a tabloid website? Not saying it’s not true, but any website that features Alex Jones and Infowars is automatically suspect.

I do not, but that is a good point. I'll dig into it a little more and see what I see. I will absolutely own that I could have been hoodwinked.
 
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