Case Study #3: Rules of Engagement

[pardus]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, that's the friend's opinion, not a stiplated fact.

Exactly!

Doesn't really matter.
Still have to grab him (now) or risk losing him.
Freakin got the "moral" obligation to grab him, even if the "legal" part screws me.
That's why I'm calling First Sgt, and my intel guys, they'll call FBI.

It matters hugely.
The second you touch him, you break the law, you have no authority here at all.
Your 1st Sgt etc... have no say in this matter at all except to tell you to STFU.

What are they going to tell the FBI, "I have a half drunk Soldier in NYC who says he found an AQ member at a bar"?

Think about that...

You have NO legal right to detain him.

It's a Police matter.

You as a Soldier are a civilian in this scenario.

Touch him and expect to be arrested and dishonorably discharged from the Military, for someone who is prob a poser anyway.

Like I said in a previous post this scenario happen to me in real life, actually twice!

Both supposed IRA terrorists.

What am I going to do call a terrorist supporting Police force? i.e. NYPD because trust me they openly support terrorists!!! I have proof!

 

[arizonaguide]

It may. Yup, I may get screwed to the wall by any number of folks, (although I doubt my First Sgt leaves me twisting in the wind) but guess what:

I'm grabbing the MF, rather than let a PID terrorist (NOT a "poser" per Marauder) escape into the wind. Call it a "military-citizen's" arrest. MY oath doesn't stop when I'm outta uniform. (just ask me!)
Plus the MF assaulted me when he spit on me. Tell that TO THE aclu! My First Sgt can call the locals after he gets there, unless he directs otherwise. I'm asking him to call Intel with the first call.
I'm using MY resourses first. Probably the intel guys will know, or call Jag, or tell me to call the locals. I want this JAG contact before calling the local police, if possible.

I'm sitting in the kitchen with my "detainee" and my cell phone. (F***, what have I DONE!!!)

 

[pardus]

Spitting is not assault in NY.
You are up for a potential kidnapping charge, tell that to the ACLU... ;)
Where is your 1st Sgt? You're in NYC, if you're AD he could anywhere.
Like I keep saying in this thread, this has NOTHING to do with the Military!
It's a civil matter, the Military has no authority here, you are a no body who is going to do nothing except drag the Military through the mud by detaining him, you have to be smarter about this, conviction doesn't mean shit, being correct does.
Seems to me you aren't using your biggest reasource, your brain, beingall hooah is stupid in this case.
This can and should be handled in other ways. :2c:

It may. Yup, I may get screwed to the wall by any number of folks, (although I doubt my First Sgt leaves me twisting in the wind) but guess what:

I'm grabbing the MF, rather than let a PID terrorist escape into the wind. Call it a "military-citizen's" arrest. MY oath doesn't stop when I'm outta uniform. (just ask me!)
Plus the MF assaulted me when he spit on me. Tell that TO THE aclu! My First Sgt can call the locals after he gets there, unless he directs otherwise. I'm asking him to call Intel with the first call.
I'm using MY resourses first.

 

[arizonaguide]

Probably so, Bro! But I did it (had to, might lose him otherwise)...something about that being an Positive Identified "enemy combatant", forces my hand.
And here's the FirstSgt on the phone right now(yeah, long distance)...say's don't do nuthin till he talks to Intel and maybe JAG.
In the meantime he says "stay of the *** phone *****, ****, you ***,stupid@#$$%^^&&**!!~!"

 

[arizonaguide]

Brain tells me grab him or lose him...

I do want to be the first to call the police, but I want to talk to my "experts" first.
We (3) detained him without hurting him. He's secured(in the kitchen). The public thinks he was "drunk".
At this point all anyone has is our descriptions...we paid cash too. (mostly someone elses).
Bartender has my first name, and knows the story, we "borrowed" the bar kitchen from him.
We could walk away right now, and let the bartender unsecure him, but I'm waiting on the phone call.
:)

What is a Citizens Arrest?

By: Collin McKibben, Attorney at Law & Ariella Rosenberg

Everyone is familiar with the term citizens arrest: we have seen it on TV, read about it in books, and even heard about it in social circles. Surprisingly, however, almost nobody really understands what a citizens arrest is, or legally, what it represents.

A citizen's arrest is an arrest performed by a civilian who lacks official government authority to make an arrest (as opposed to an officer of the law). An arrest, as defined by Black's Law Dictionary, is "The apprehending or detaining of a person in order to be forthcoming to answer an alleged or suspected crime." Ex parte Sherwood, (29 Tex. App. 334, 15 S.W. 812).

Although generally the person making a citizens arrest must be a citizen, in certain states, a citizens arrest can be carried out by a civilian who is not a citizen (for example, an alien or illegal immigrant). A citizens arrest does not necessarily mean an arrest made by a single individual who happens to witness a crime. For example, a department store may also carry out a citizens arrest in the course of apprehending a shoplifter.

Legal Requirements for Making a Citizens Arrest

The right to making a citizens arrest goes back to our roots in English common law. Historically, before the modern infrastructure of police departments, citizen's arrests were an important part of community law enforcement. Today, citizens arrests are still legal in every state, although state laws pertaining to citizens arrests are not uniform. In general, all states permit citizens arrests if a criminal felony (defined by the government as a serious crime, usually punishable by at least one year in prison) is witnessed by the citizen carrying out the arrest, or if a citizen is asked to help apprehend a suspect by the police. Variations of state law arise in cases of misdemeanors, breaches of the peace, and felonies not witnessed by the arresting party.

Is it a witnessed felony to be PID as a alQuiada on US soil? It HAS to be.
Shit, in my case here comes the cops, the waitress called them.

 

[0699]

Probably so, Bro! But I did it (had to, might lose him otherwise)...something about that being an Positive Identified "enemy combatant", forces my hand.
And here's the FirstSgt on the phone right now(yeah, long distance)...say's don't do nuthin till he talks to Intel and maybe JAG.
In the meantime he says "stay of the *** phone *****, ****, you ***,stupid@#$$%^^&&**!!~!"

I'm trying to picture the look on our SgtMaj's face (we don't have a 1stSgt in my unit) when I call him long-distance at 0500 in the AM to tell him I've apprehended a terrorist in NYC. The ultimate drunk-dial!! :)

BTW, I stand by my original statement.

 

[Ex3]

The only sure way to NOT lose him is to take him from the curb.
Even following him you have the chance to lose him. If he pays cash(of course with a cab), the FBI will have a "drop location" and a "description"...so he could be gone unless you stay in physical contact.

fwiw, all cabs accept credit cards as payment now. Additionally, if you get the cab number (on top of the car) and you note the time of day, the cab driver keeps records of his pickup and drop off locations, so you could locate the guy that way. :2c:

 

[HOLLiS]

Blind enthusiasm regardless of how noble it may seem, will just get you in a world of hurt. Pardus has some of the best suggestions.

If your not a cop, don't play cop. There are other alternatives. Gather information and pass that information on.

Information= description, any license numbers, any associates, time, date, where, other witness' etc. Avoid contract, is a wise choice.

If he is a poser, wannabe AQ, you go to jail as Padus stated.

If he is the real deal, you just might find yourself in a world of hurt and expand that world of hurt to others. Let the professionals handle it.

 

[arizonaguide]

Agree all. But look at the situation.

I've got a known terrorist (with proof, as per marauder) standing on the curb ready to dissappear into the wind.
I've got 5sec to make this decision.
If I let him step into that cab, it's a crap shoot if we ever get control of him again.
Description and Record of Drop location buys me a big "maybe".

I agree I'd rather keep eyes on, and report, but situation is that there's only one "sure" way to not lose contact.
To my understanding there's proof he's a known PID'd Enemy Combatant. It's NOT just suspician anymore.
I agree Let the professionals handle it. Gotta hand him over.

Check it out: If I grab (proven terrorist) now (quietly), and secure him in the kitchen, and post a man watching the outside, aren't I in a better spot then following (proven terrorist) in another cab (maybe his buddy) and possibly losing him in traffic?
Plus following him in another cab COULD be a setup, and I could find myself in a trap in the "next" cab. It could all have been a setup to GET me to follow him (especially the spitting, etc.).

The only completely SURE way to get him is grab him now.
But, maybe there's a method to do this that I'm not thinking of.

 

[QC]

Ari, you have an alleged known terrorist.

is witnessed by the citizen carrying out the arrest

This is crucial too. Correct me if I'm wrong here but you have to witness the crime being committed for a citizens arrest to be effective, not think he's going to do it or have seen him after the fact in the area of a crime.
Pass the info up the food chain.

 

[Hush]

Plus following him in another cab COULD be a setup, and I could find myself in a trap in the "next" cab. It could all have been a setup to GET me to follow him (especially the spitting, etc.).

Excellent point. What better way to set up a kidnap scenario, then to have you voluntarily enter a cab. Cabs have been used to set up kidnappings/hits in the past...just ask Curtis Silwa (even though he is still a jackass)

 

[HOLLiS]

Agree all. But look at the situation.

I've got a known terrorist (with proof, as per marauder) standing on the curb ready to dissappear into the wind.
I've got 5sec to make this decision.
If I let him step into that cab, it's a crap shoot if we ever get control of him again.
Description and Record of Drop location buys me a big "maybe".

I agree I'd rather keep eyes on, and report, but situation is that there's only one "sure" way to not lose contact.
To my understanding there's proof he's a known PID'd Enemy Combatant. It's NOT just suspician anymore.
I agree Let the professionals handle it. Gotta hand him over.

Check it out: If I grab (proven terrorist) now (quietly), and secure him in the kitchen, and post a man watching the outside, aren't I in a better spot then following (proven terrorist) in another cab (maybe his buddy) and possibly losing him in traffic?
Plus following him in another cab COULD be a setup, and I could find myself in a trap in the "next" cab. It could all have been a setup to GET me to follow him (especially the spitting, etc.).

The only completely SURE way to get him is grab him now.
But, maybe there's a method to do this that I'm not thinking of.

Knowing that what ever you do you are screwed.

You change jackets, but on a wig, put a suppressor on your pistol, then calmly and quietly walk by him, capping him in the back of the head and then disappear into the shadows. Maybe leaving behind some gang graffiti, so it looks like a gang hit.

Well the worse case scenario is, you spend your time at a state of federal facility, three hots and cot. You spend your days writing a novel on hit, sell it to the movie industry. When you get out, your rich.


I would probably just order another beer, and ignore the whole process.

 

[arizonaguide]

Exactly. Marauder, what's the answer?

Here's given facts and the question again:

This guy self PID's as al Qaeda.(and) He shows you his membership card, a tatoo, a pic of himself and bin Laden... whatever passes for positive ID with them. He's AQ. Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror. Here's an AQ member right here in front of you. Can you engage this individual like you could if you were back in Baghdad? Why or why not?

The fundamental flaw in this storyline is of course the PID angle; AQ doesn't wear uniforms and as far as I know doesn't have any formal ID, so PIDing them is usually somewhat difficult. To me though, if you claim to be AQ then you are AQ, this isn't like wearing a shirt that says "we will not be silent" in Arabic or wondering aloud where the safest place on a place to sit is. As far as I'm concerned, if you say you're AQ, you're AQ, and you have to live with the consequences of that affiliation.

He's AQ. Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror!

 

[HOLLiS]

Another possiblity is, you have a friend of ME descent, or looks like it. The AQ tries to recruit them to help, supply, participate in a attack or ??


Your friend tells you, the AQ will be at.......... at some time. This may give you sufficient PC.

 

[arizonaguide]

According to Marauder we have 100% confirmation AQ.
Isn't that a crime? (PC in and of itself?) and legal cause enough to detain him as a citizen?
I've got a known terrorist (with proof, as per marauder) standing on the curb ready to dissappear into the wind.
I've got 5 sec to make this decision.
If I let him step into that cab, it's a crap shoot if we ever get control of him again.


..5,4,3,2,.....(?)

Crap, don't common people detain "suspects" on aircraft if one stands up and yells AQ, spits, and makes threats?
Isn't there a reasonable timeframe to "detain" or release...similar to what people have done on aircraft?
Also, a certain amount of "assault" HAS taken place, but perhaps not enough to Detain on just that.
But, He's 100% confirmed AQ. Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror!

 

[HOLLiS]

Ok, the guy is known AQ and you rouse him as a citizen.

Thing you may not know. FBI and family knows who he is and has him under surveillance to know more. So you pull a CA, and blow 6 mos of hard work. FBI and family is not happy with you. Also blowing the hard work, may allow AQ and friends to make sufficient changes to plan A, that plan B succeeds. Now you have massive guilt.

Local jurisdiction issue.

Local DA is a liberal putz, and burns you.

Local DA is a good guy and tries to keep you from being hung.

AQ has friends, they visit your family.


If your poor, your ACLU or CAIR is not going to get much from you in tort claim.

If you have $$, they do.

You follow AQ and stop him form carrying our Plan A, he has the stuff. Your a hero. Unless he is wanted or in the process of committing a crime, just being is not sufficient to arrest him.


Airplanes are another Issue...... I don't remember for sure, but there are some special laws in regards to airplanes.

 

[0699]

Crap, don't common people detain "suspects" on aircraft if one stands up and yells AQ, spits, and makes threats...without ACLU bullshit?

IMO there's a lot of difference between a person on a plane making AQ statements, threats, etc, and a drunk bar patron spitting and claiming to be AQ.

 

[arizonaguide]

Agreed, but "Proved to be AQ". So 3,2,1, we let him go? Attempt to follow? Possibly lose forever. Requires getting in the next cab, if there is one. Quick.

What if there isn't another cab? Marauder didn't say there were two cabs. He's maybe lost forever.
He's going to be getting in the cab, what do we do?
Gotta do it now...whatever it is.

 

[Ex3]

Jump in with him. :) That should be fun. Then the drive would call 911 - problem solved!

 

[arizonaguide]

When I hear the words AQ, I think bomb.
Where was he sitting exactly? Backpack?
Hollis, 0699, Ex3, I'm buying across the street!:)