Discuss and Debate: "Islam is a Religion of Peace"

[pardus]

I am not sure what the ...? is referring to, but rest assured, this is an intellectual exercise. As I posted earlier, I realize I am only 25 & can only know so much at this stage. I am playing the advocate because if I was taught something incorrectly, or have misunderstood what I read, it is my most sincere hope that the wiser heads on SS correct me.

If you are implying I'm trying to advocate or push an agenda, I can assure that's not the case. If it was, I would have entered into a debate with people of similar age & lesser experience than myself. I was simply referring to my notes that are currently lost in my office. I have only been actively studying this topic for a short time, so I need to refer to my notes from time to time, particularly in cases post-rashidun. I currently am undecided where I stand on this issue, which is why I am so thankful for the opportunity to engage in this debate. I too have strong reservations on Islam because of what I saw and experiences in Iraq & Afghanistan, & I am trying, to the best of my ability, to come to my own conclusions based on intelligent discussion & input from others.

OK, no problem, just clarifying what I thought.

I will give you one kernel of advice though, 'books' are great but they are no substitute for reality. University/school is 'books'.

I love to debate (as most here who know me will attest too.) but I realize (most of the time) what is real and true.

To say Islam is a religion of peace is supremely ignorant and idiotic. Even a cursory look with any intelligence and slight digging will reveal that.

That said, go nuts and debate, it is healthy and needed in a free society, something Islam doesn't allow.

 

[Marauder06]

I am not sure what the ...? is referring to, but rest assured, this is an intellectual exercise. As I posted earlier, I realize I am only 25 & can only know so much at this stage. I am playing the advocate because if I was taught something incorrectly, or have misunderstood what I read, it is my most sincere hope that the wiser heads on SS correct me.

If you are implying I'm trying to advocate or push an agenda, I can assure that's not the case. If it was, I would have entered into a debate with people of similar age & lesser experience than myself. I was simply referring to my notes that are currently lost in my office. I have only been actively studying this topic for a short time, so I need to refer to my notes from time to time, particularly in cases post-rashidun. I currently am undecided where I stand on this issue, which is why I am so thankful for the opportunity to engage in this debate. I too have strong reservations on Islam because of what I saw and experiences in Iraq & Afghanistan, & I am trying, to the best of my ability, to come to my own conclusions based on intelligent discussion & input from others.

I intended this as an intellectual exercise and I recognize that you're approaching it from the same angle. I appreciate you taking the "other" point of view, I think it makes all of us better.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

OK, no problem, just clarifying what I thought.

I will give you one kernel of advice though, 'books' are great but they are no substitute for reality. University/school is 'books'.

I love to debate (as most here who know me will attest too.) but I realize (most of the time) what is real and true.

To say Islam is a religion of peace is supremely ignorant and idiotic. Even a cursory look with any intelligence and slight digging will reveal that.

That said, go nuts and debate, it is healthy and needed in a free society, something Islam doesn't allow.

I am not as confident in my education or experience as you to make such a definitive statement, but then again, I am young, & do not think I have the right to make such statements with only 3 deployments & only a year of studying Islam. Maybe with more years & more experience, I will come the same conclusion. & yes, I understand books is no substitute for experience or reality, but I also feel those books, when used as honestly as possible, shed more light on that reality than it would without them. Just in the time this thread has been up, I have had what I was taught challenged, which is exactly what I wanted, b/c I have no interest in holding to a way of thought that is neither correct nor reasonable.

 

[pardus]

I am not as confident in my education or experience as you to make such a definitive statement, but then again, I am young, & do not think I have the right to make such statements with only 3 deployments & only a year of studying Islam. Maybe with more years & more experience, I will come the same conclusion. & yes, I understand books is no substitute for experience or reality, but I also feel those books, when used as honestly as possible, shed more light on that reality than it would without them. Just in the time this thread has been up, I have had what I was taught challenged, which is exactly what I wanted, b/c I have no interest in holding to a way of thought that is neither correct nor reasonable.

Go to a strict Islamic country, stay there for just a couple of weeks and you will learn all you need to know about the reality of Islam, then go back to the books and educate yourself on what you have seen.

I work my whole life on one philosophy, "what's the bottom line?" That cuts out meaningless bullshit, and in regards to Islam shows quite clearly that it is a violent and repressive religion. Something I shouldn't need to tell you.

Stop being such a bookworm nerd, look at the hard facts, your definitive answer is about 15 minutes away.

Later entries to the Koran take precedence to earlier (more tolerant ones). So as a result we have undisputed violence base religion, right?

I'm not trying to attack you, just slap you a bit ;)

Don't be afraid of telling me im full of shit because im a moderator, that isn't relevant here, ok?

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

To say Islam is a religion of peace is supremely ignorant and idiotic. Even a cursory look with any intelligence and slight digging will reveal that.

One more thing, & I say this with no offense meant & the utmost respect- casually casting off those who do believe Islam is a religion of peace as ignorant & idiotic, without providing more concrete examples, does not further the debate. I would not take an issue with this were it not for some whom I greatly respect- whose experience & knowledge I would venture to say compare with most, if not all, on this forum- actually DO believe, on some level, the very thing you consider idiotic. When well respected men (like those on this board) make these statements, regardless of which position they are on, it blunts the intellectual progress of those whom look up to these men. Please understand, this is a big issue for me because based on my current trajectory, my career will be focused on the Middle East, whether in the scholarly arena or in the government, & I do not want to be under any false pretenses by the time I get to wherever I am heading. That way, when (God willing) I am in a position to pass on these ideas & influence others, I am not simply regurgitating the flavor of the month.

 

[HOLLiS]

Pardus, IMHO, religion is a tool. Someone earlier stated something about the difference of faith and religion. There is a lot of discussion about organized religion in the states. So is it the religion or is the religion being used as a tool of oppression? Historically when a country was under a theocracy, the people where greatly repressed. As the theocracy changed to a dictatorship or monarch, religion was used to establish the right to rule over the people.

Marx stated, that religion was the opiate of the people.

As I mentioned the Qur'an is pretty easy to make the interpretation that you want out of it. In those Islamic countries, clerics are like feudal lords, with control over their people of life and death. The other aspect, literacy in those countries is a very low %. Same was in feudal Europe, most people were illiterate.

I don't think the issue with Islam is a black and white clear cut issue. Liberation theology is pretty new to Islam and has not made much in the way of support. Progressive Islamic writers fall with in the group considered to be apostates and are subject to execution.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

Stop being such a bookworm nerd, look at the hard facts, your definitive answer is about 15 minutes away.
I'll be honest I don't quite agree with this. It can be extremely dangerous to make a decision based on my individual first impression. Christopher Columbus operated under a similar mentality, & it royally sucked for the Native Americans.
Later entries to the Koran take precedence to earlier (more tolerant ones). So as a result we have undisputed violence base religion, right?
This is an excellent point. Yes, if we work from this viewpoint, I agree I have little to no ground to stand on. In recent history, I think it can be agreed that Islamic society is, by and large, oppressive. So we have reached an agreement.
I'm not trying to attack you, just slap you a bit ;)
Not a problem. If I'm off base, I welcome the criticism.

 

[pardus]

One more thing, & I say this with no offense meant & the utmost respect- casually casting off those who do believe Islam is a religion of peace as ignorant & idiotic, without providing more concrete examples, does not further the debate. I would not take an issue with this were it not for some whom I greatly respect- whose experience & knowledge I would venture to say compare with most, if not all, on this forum- actually DO believe, on some level, the very thing you consider idiotic. When well respected men (like those on this board) make these statements, regardless of which position they are on, it blunts the intellectual progress of those whom look up to these men. Please understand, this is a big issue for me because based on my current trajectory, my career will be focused on the Middle East, whether in the scholarly arena or in the government, & I do not want to be under any false pretenses by the time I get to wherever I am heading. That way, when (God willing) I am in a position to pass on these ideas & influence others, I am not simply regurgitating the flavor of the month.

You're a fucking politician, I'll give you that! lol


Why should I need to prove a fact that proves itself? Read and you will see I'm correct.
I will not expend effort to prove the fact that Islam is evil and violent. Do you think fucking pre teen age girls is righteous? No? Then I'm right. Simple as that, end of story, lets have a beer.

Stop trying to justify Islam and look at it objectively.
I don't need to find passages and "proof" of the violence of Islam, I'm stating a fact. You should know what i'm saying is right because you should have read and understood enough about Islam to know I'm right.

Also, I don't give a shit who thinks I'm wrong. This is a subject I've looked into and made a decision based on facts. If I'm the only person on the planet who thinks this way I'm OK with it. I follow what I think is right, not what others follow.

 

[pardus]

Later entries to the Koran take precedence to earlier (more tolerant ones). So as a result we have undisputed violence base religion, right?
This is an excellent point. Yes, if we work from this viewpoint, I agree I have little to no ground to stand on.

If we work from this viewpoint??? That is dictated by the Islamic documents correct?

This is why I ask if you are truly using this as an intellectual argument or have an agenda. I stated an absolute fact and you try to marginalize that as a viewpoint.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

You're a fucking politician, I'll give you that! lol
Probably the biggest insult I have ever been dealt
Stop trying to justify Islam and look at it objectively.
Believe me, my feelings won't be hurt if you are right. Likewise, if I come to the conclusion you are wrong, then fine. Neither conclusion will change me except for adding another conclusion I worked hard to get to.
I don't need to find passages and "proof" of the violence of Islam, I'm stating a fact. You should know what i'm saying is right because you should have read and understood enough about Islam to know I'm right.
As compared to what though. I can pick a point in time for essentially every religion out there to provide proof that religion is evil. Perhaps the issue is whether religion is general is to blame.
Also, I don't give a shit who thinks I'm wrong. This is a subject I've looked into and made a decision based on facts. If I'm the only person on the planet who thinks this way I'm OK with it. I follow what I think is right, not what others follow.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to get to. I will step down from my bright-eyed idealism now & enter the real world

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

If we work from this viewpoint??? That is dictated by the Islamic documents correct?

This is why I ask if you are truly using this as an intellectual argument or have an agenda. I stated an absolute fact and you try to marginalize that as a viewpoint.

Perhaps I worded it poorly. you'll have to forgive me, I'm replying in between homework assignments. I was basing my arguments off the historical context of the Quran & arguing from that stand point. The FACT that Islamic civilization today is oppressive & largely violent is without debate. & again, for the last time, no. I have no agenda. I have no agenda. I have no agenda.

 

[pardus]

LOL, you're a bastard.

I don't need to find passages and "proof" of the violence of Islam, I'm stating a fact. You should know what i'm saying is right because you should have read and understood enough about Islam to know I'm right.
As compared to what though. I can pick a point in time for essentially every religion out there to provide proof that religion is evil. Perhaps the issue is whether religion is general is to blame.

The Koran was written in chronological order but wasn't put onto paper that way, you need to read it chronologically in order to see the true meaning. i.e. peaceful stuff at the start when he was weak then kill the kaffiirs when he was strong at the end.

Please tell me you understand that. I'm a little surprised I have to explain this to a "Scholar" of Islam.

 

[Brill]

I am not sure what the ...? is referring to.

Mental masturbation. Happens all the time until you get a little older.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

Mental masturbation. Happens all the time until you get a little older.

Lol thanks for the clarification. Like I said, if I just wanted to stroke my own ego I would have gone somewhere else where it would have been easier. There is no hope of climax to be had here ;)

 

[Brill]

I too have strong reservations on Islam because of what I saw and experiences in Iraq & Afghanistan...

You have seen nothing but Muslims with their backs against the wall in a perceived fight for their survival. Take a summer abroad and head out to Uzbekistan or Tajikistan then head over to the Azerbaijan (the closest you can get to Shia Islam without going "hiking"). After some time there cruise over to the Maghreb and chill while you drink the mint tea (amazing). End your travels with hanging out with the Bedouins and enjoy the food. THEN you will understand those peaceful people will slit your throat, drain you out, and then pray over your corpse while praising that Allah presented them with the opportunity to kill a kafir to preserve Islam. WTFever.

Dude, the wipe their freakin' asses with their left hands. Islam is a religion of piece(s) of poop on their hand. Um, did I just cross the EO line?

 

[AWP]

I vaguely recall a ditty about actions speaking louder than words.

While I won't discount what the Qu'ran/ Koran/ Korean/ Corona says, I'll put more stock in how the believers and followers act.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

You have seen nothing but Muslims with their backs against the wall in a perceived fight for their survival.

I'm glad you are such an authority on my own experiences that you can effectively interpret them for me

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

I'm a little surprised I have to explain this to a "Scholar" of Islam.

Seriously? did you ever read a single post where I touted myself as a scholar, or even in an intermediate stage of proficiency on Islamic studies? No, quite the opposite. You saw someone who, when Mara said he would love to debate someone of an opposing view, took him up on it as an attempt to better understand all opinions involved. I did this while immediately, & repeatedly, cautioning everyone that I new to Islamic studies, do not YET hold a definitive opinion on the matter, & will play the part of someone from the opposing side.

This thread was very informative. For all those who participated, thank you. I took away valuable insights.
Unfortunately I fear this thread has now run it's course.

Semper.

 

[pardus]

Seriously? did you ever read a single post where I touted myself as a scholar, or even in an intermediate stage of proficiency on Islamic studies? No, quite the opposite. You saw someone who, when Mara said he would love to debate someone of an opposing view, took him up on it as an attempt to better understand all opinions involved. I did this while immediately, & repeatedly, cautioning everyone that I new to Islamic studies, do not YET hold a definitive opinion on the matter, & will play the part of someone from the opposing side.

This thread was very informative. For all those who participated, thank you. I took away valuable insights.
Unfortunately I fear this thread has now run it's course.

Semper.

Sigh...

Did you take note of the "" when I said scholar?

Besides, all your responses are "scholarly" based because you do nothing but quote the Koran to back your views.

Unfortunately I fear you became overwhelmed when your brain was called upon over your "scholarly" training and you didn't have the common sense to overcome your education and think for yourself.

;)

 

[Crusader74]

In all seriousness, this thread, as I understand it, is not a comparative analysis of the Qur'an but rather discussing whether or not Islam is in fact a religion of peace. To that end, I would recommend defining "peace". To me peace is synonymous with non-violence, tolerance, acceptance, etc as epitomized in the Buddist philosophy.

Additionally the Qur'an, to my knowledge, has never killed anyone or inflicted violence upon others whereas the followers of Islam clearly have. (Side note: I went into a "Qur'an shop" (a kitab) in a Muslim country to purchase a Qur'an and holder. I meant no harm however I was quickly asked to leave because I was clearly a gringo. I'm sure had I stayed, I would have been injured by a thrown holy book. :-" ) Therefore quoting the Qur'an to justify a position is actually flawed because the book is nothing more than Arabic words that are interpreted by people in different ways hence Sufism, Shiaism, Whabbism, etc.

I believe that in order to clearly state the premise of this thread, it be renamed "Are the followers of Islam more apt to incite violence in the name of Allah?" but even then that title presupposes that Muslims are violent.

Thoughts?

To add to that, I had a similar experience in Lebanon.. A small shop located outside the A- Company Camp In South Lebanon.. It was owned by two brothers, Ali and Muhammad who's normal very friendly demeanor(Friendly = Sales to Irish Soldiers) suddenly changed when I picked up the Qur'an to inquire about Islam... He exclaimed you must not touch the holy book! What Religion of Peace does not allow another demomination to pick up the book they preech from to inquire/read ?

I left and didn't go back for a few weeks... Back to friendly demeanor...