Discuss and Debate: "Islam is a Religion of Peace"

[JohnnyBoyUSMC]

Well Irish they did used to chain the bible to the church back in the day, course that was probably to keep from people stealing it.

Sorry to come late to the party, getting set up for my first time to college has been hectic.

As I'd already pointed out in the previous thread that spawned this one, with the writings in the Koran, the hadith's, and the generally militant history of Islam, one can of course see its not a religion of peace. That's totally against what all the evidence points out to us, not to mention actions speak louder than words. Plenty also depends not only on ones interpretation of religious text, but what they do with it as well. AQ and those that practice a form of suffi/Wahhabi Islam are about the closest practitioners to the "pure" form of Islam. While its not the brand everyone practices, it's closest to the teachings of the religion. However despite the fact that you can't turn back time no matter how badly they want to, given cultural, tribal, ethnical, and sociological considerations, most Muslims don't/can't/won't practice this more "pure" form of Islam, though,many try to come close.

Islam itself also helps promote and breed xenophobia and xenophobic tensions and traits, which only helps create a more vicious circle, in this case not trusting or wanting to help outsiders even though it might be the morally right thing to do, i.e. knowing there are IED's along the road and not saying shit to a platoon walking down the road. It's not right, I hate it, I hate that "not my problem" attitude and using what religion says you should do as opposed to what you know is right to do.

It's not a pattern exclusive to Islam, but it's more common and seen more in parts of the world where Islam is practiced. History further helps enforce these negative attitudes and helps to focus negative energy and ideas when it comes to Muslims too, as the jihadi's just love to continually remind people of the crusades, but of course forget to mention some of islam's more militant conquering times in its history. All of this is not to say its exclusive to Islam, as most religions have a rich history of murder, conquering, killing non-believers, and general hypocracy in them, but again, Islam tends to come out stronger in these regards.

 

[AWP]

I'm going to reopen this thread, but first, you need to read this:

This thread is supposed to be a debate about a specific topic. Debates can be heated affairs, I well understand that, but I am not going to tolerate what this thread has become.

The name calling and the put downs end NOW. If you lack the discipline or professionalism to state your views/ beliefs without resorting to mud slinging then stay out of this thread. Given the caliber of individuals participating I shouldn't even have to bring this up and that's what pisses me off the most.

If you have questions or problems, send me a PM. If you have a complaint about me, send Boon a PM.

Back to our regulary scheduled program.

 

[Brill]

The irony about FF's above post in a thread about peace is hillarious and drives the point home that Islam INCITES VIOLENCE!

 

[Brill]

To add to that, I had a similar experience in Lebanon.. A small shop located outside the A- Company Camp In South Lebanon.. It was owned by two brothers, Ali and Muhammad who's normal very friendly demeanor(Friendly = Sales to Irish Soldiers) suddenly changed when I picked up the Qur'an to inquire about Islam... He exclaimed you must not touch the holy book! What Religion of Peace does not allow another demomination to pick up the book they preech from to inquire/read ?

I left and didn't go back for a few weeks... Back to friendly demeanor...

Sounds very familar. Oh, but what about the food Irish and the nightlife??? Hubba hubba!!!! Beirut is the best place in the ME in my opinion.

 

[HOLLiS]

This is a emotional issue. Looking at Islam seems to contradict reason. There are less than 1 billion Muslims in the world, each one (number 1) defines their aspect of Islam. When there are large number who practice barbaric acts on their own people and other people, what does that say. It also depends on how many other Muslims a person knows. If all one hears are the barbaric acts, that is what one sees, Islam is barbaric. IMHO, that is a natural human thing. This discussion goes back to the beginning of time. Religion, Nationalism, race, sex, etc........ any different group than we are may not be fully understood and viewed in simple stereotypical manner.

There is even a term for a fallacy in logic for this issue, equivocation. That still does not help the dilemma that we are in. Some sects of Islam, makes Islam look like a cult. That does not mean All of Islam is a cult, just those sects. We also have good old human nature again, Probably most Muslims are not 100% compliant with Islam. I think that applies to most religions. Week end believers, Jacks, etc. If those societies where not functional theocracies, those people probably would be some other religion or ??.

The best people to do with the barbarity practices by other Muslims are other Muslims. As outsiders we can only, restrict, pass laws, condemn, etc Just as those Muslim youth are protecting those churches, or Muslims who protected Coptics in Egypt, they need to be supported. I think, our task is to bifurcate the issue. That is the rub, as Shakespeare would have said.

This issue also challenges our understanding of our Constitution. The freedom to think, to believe in what ever one chooses. People do not need other people's OK to believe in what ever. I think, this creates a conflict in our own minds too.

I first read the Qur'an in the mid 60's. A hobby of mine is theology, even though I am mostly a materialist. All through that time and especially after 9/11 I have not read or heard of a solution to this issue. I believe the solution lies in each of us individually.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

After talking with Pardus via pm, we stumbled on something that might help focus this debate. I'll just copy & paste parts of our convo:

What I am currently trying to figure out is if that barbarism is directly because of Islam or if Islam is simply a supplement to an already violent society. As brutal as early Islam was (Muhammad through the rashidun, even more so afterwards), it was far more "civil" than what they had before Muhammad. For women, children, & the region in general. Islamic civilization quickly began deterioration, & being confronted by western modernism tipped it over them edge.

If I got in a time machine & looked at Christian Europe in the 13th & 14th centuries, we would see similar barbarism, often done in the name of Christianity. Catholicism alone lays claim to a staggering body count. Wars brought out by the reformation is another example. Men/nations of all religions routinely throughout history have twisted their scriptures to justify their own greed. It happened for hundreds of years in Christianity, is this what's happening here?
So is Islam really the source of this evil, or just an easy excuse that can easily be molded to fit a radicals beliefs? I would dare say that the Arab world would be just as violent if Islam had not been invented.
I think I can be argued that by uniting the Arab world, Muhammad did pave the way for vast Muslim nations that have inflicted massive atrocities, as could be said for of Constantine or the rise of the papacy. But some nations were (compared to societies of there time) a great example of creativity & tolerance.

So, in Pardus' words: "Is Islam the reason of the enabler?"

 

[HOLLiS]

Mael, books do not do anything. It takes people to act. I tend to believe it is politics first, then culture and Islam is just a tool. Just as Christianity was tool in the middle ages, to control people. When you have a large proportion of the people who are illiterate, the religious leaders can make up what ever and say it is a divine ruling.

We can change political leaders in rather short order, but changing cultural influence takes time, lots of it. Maybe generations must past before we get effective change. Look at the History of the US or Europe, we have gone a long ways over the last 200 years.

Some of the Muslims that I chatted with, will say a lot of the barbarity is carried over from the past, pre-Islam. Mass conversions to a faith does not change the culture of people as much as those culture tends to change the religion. We can also see this in the development of Christianity in Europe.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

Mael, books do not do anything. It takes people to act. I tend to believe it is politics first, then culture and Islam is just a tool. Just as Christianity was tool in the middle ages, to control people. When you have a large proportion of the people who are illiterate, the religious leaders can make up what ever and say it is a divine ruling.
Excellent points.
a lot of the barbarity is carried over from the past, pre-Islam. Mass conversions to a faith does not change the culture of people as much as those culture tends to change the religion. We can also see this in the development of Christianity in Europe.
That's what I'm wondering. A huge portion of early converts could care less about Islam- it was political or benefited their tribe. The barbarity of pre-Islam Arab world rivals the atrocities we see today. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) I read in Maj. Gant's work "It's the Tribes, Stupid" that mentions tribal elders admitting that pashtunwali is held above Islam. There's a lot to be said about how culture vs. religion mold each other

 

[pardus]

It is a very interesting point indeed.

I think that Islam is probably both a reason and an enabler in the violence we see today (which admittedly is a mere pittance of what is was hundreds of years ago).
I believe one reason why Islam is both is that the wording of the Koran doesn't allow a lot of room for change.

"Kill or Convert" is kinda black and white.

Islam brought about a burst of culture that the whole world benefited from but due to the wording and rules regarding Islam it seems to have locked them into a time capsule that wants to hold them in the middle ages.

The Koran says things such as 'kill or convert' that will forever give certain people the excuse they need to commit violence.
So the Koran can be the reason and the enabler.

More frustratingly, I don't see a chance of things getting better unless Islam is turned on it's head, and that is something I can't imagine.

 

[Brill]

If Islam caused and/or enabled violence, then violence would be spread thoughout the Muslim population.

Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, and Indonesia would all be in flames, no? There must be some other reason why people from Muslim countries travel to warzones to fight other Muslims and infidels alike. Conversely, why do Muslims flee to non-Muslim countries when violence erupts in their homeland?

 

[HOLLiS]

Pardus, Kill or convert is not black in white, there is wiggle room. For those who are branded as pagans, it would probably be that way. One aspect, is that the original Qur'an is gone. It would not be difficult to alter some of the interpretations. Some Clerics in Turkey are reviewing the Hadiths, which are used in helping to understand the Qur'an.

Just like Jihad, can also mean self purification, like a mikva or baptism. A lot of religions has some kind of cleansing process. I think what we see in the terrorists action is not really reflected in the Qur'an, but is the terrorist's distortion of what is written.

Another interesting Sura is 5, ayats 20 -25. Pretty much says, Israel belongs to the Jews. We all know how clerics in Islam considered the legitimacy of Israel to be.

Mohammad brought monotheism to the Arabs, who had over 250 gods. So during the mass conversion, how much of the superstition carried over into the development of Islam in the ME. Also, read the Sura/Ayats on Arabs, it is not very kind to the Arabs.

 

[TH15]

If Islam caused and/or enabled violence, then violence would be spread thoughout the Muslim population.

Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, and Indonesia would all be in flames, no? There must be some other reason why people from Muslim countries travel to warzones to fight other Muslims and infidels alike. Conversely, why do Muslims flee to non-Muslim countries when violence erupts in their homeland?

Don't those regimes give people free health care/education/etc. to quell the potential for violence? I've spoken with a few Muslims who have said that, at least in the case of the Saudis and Jordanians, the people want to practice Islam as it was to be intended: with Sharia in place and all that comes with that. I don't know enough about the subject matter to offer any contribution, but I wonder (assuming those particular Muslims are correct) how things would be if those regimes weren't intact.

 

[Florida173]

I'm confused where anyone would think that Islam is a religion of peace. The word islam in arabic is from measure four and is closer to submission under god. Common phrase among radicals is "islam tslam" which means something like "submit or be submitted"

 

[QC]

Great points all, and more than I can feasably answer in turn as they're all relevant.
So:
1. Apostacy, a Muslim may leave but on pain of death.
2.Kafir supressed. This is bourne out with conversations with Egyptian Copts, Iraqi Mandains (sic.), Catholics & Assyrians.
3. Sex with unbelievers, slaves & captives ok
4. Submit to the will of Allah. Targets down patch out
But for me the final word goes to a young cleric, Rifa al-Tatawi who travelled to France in 1826 as part of a fact finding delegation. He was confident in his faith and culture but to his amazement he found European astronomers proved the earth was round.

 

[pardus]

If Islam caused and/or enabled violence, then violence would be spread thoughout the Muslim population.

Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, and Indonesia would all be in flames, no? There must be some other reason why people from Muslim countries travel to warzones to fight other Muslims and infidels alike. Conversely, why do Muslims flee to non-Muslim countries when violence erupts in their homeland?

No, I think despite what the Koran tells Muslims, that it's only a small minority of Muslims who follow up on the violent commands.
What we have now is a political aspect where people use the violent passages in the Koran to get people to do their bidding in the name of Jihad.
I have no doubt at all that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live peacefully and get along with their lives but I also think most Muslims would be happy to see Israel destroyed.

Pardus, Kill or convert is not black in white, there is wiggle room. For those who are branded as pagans, it would probably be that way. One aspect, is that the original Qur'an is gone. It would not be difficult to alter some of the interpretations. Some Clerics in Turkey are reviewing the Hadiths, which are used in helping to understand the Qur'an.

Just like Jihad, can also mean self purification, like a mikva or baptism. A lot of religions has some kind of cleansing process. I think what we see in the terrorists action is not really reflected in the Qur'an, but is the terrorist's distortion of what is written.

Another interesting Sura is 5, ayats 20 -25. Pretty much says, Israel belongs to the Jews. We all know how clerics in Islam considered the legitimacy of Israel to be.

Mohammad brought monotheism to the Arabs, who had over 250 gods. So during the mass conversion, how much of the superstition carried over into the development of Islam in the ME. Also, read the Sura/Ayats on Arabs, it is not very kind to the Arabs.

True, "People of the Book" can live in subjugation IIRC.

I sincerely hope there evolves a moderate Islam, because if it doesn't then the world is doomed to a never ending war/round of wars.

 

[Crusader74]

Sounds very familar. Oh, but what about the food Irish and the nightlife??? Hubba hubba!!!! Beirut is the best place in the ME in my opinion.

When I was there it was blown to bits and you wouldn't travel on your own for fear of kidnap by the hezbulloh.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

It is a very interesting point indeed.
"Kill or Convert" is kinda black and white.
Very true.
Islam brought about a burst of culture that the whole world benefited from but due to the wording and rules regarding Islam it seems to have locked them into a time capsule that wants to hold them in the middle ages.
A big problem as well was when (around 10th century) the "gates of ijtihad were condemned, preventing any further theological debate amongst Muslims. The effect of this was huge, because it curbed the rapid growth of Sufiism, which is the "mystical" branch of Islam, focusing on experiencing Allah through prayer & meditation & spinning in circles until you are dizzy. The rise of Sufism interestingly coincides with Islam's "Golden Age" of Islamic theology, philosophy, architecture. Once ijtihad was "closed," Islamic civ stagnated & refused to advance their ways. Perhaps we are seeing the result of that now. Sufism is also actively persecuted in the more violent Islamic nations, particularly Iran.
More frustratingly, I don't see a chance of things getting better unless Islam is turned on it's head, and that is something I can't imagine.

Unfortunately, this is all too true.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

Here are some interesting charts to consider as well:
This is a chart of terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from 1980-2005, compiled from statistics from the FBI terror report.
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05


I read a Pew poll today that is pretty disturbing:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2005/07/14/islamic-extremism-common-concern-for-muslim-and-western-publics/
It mentions a decline in terrorist support in the Middle East, but the numbers are still high enough to bother the hell out of me:

 

[QC]

With Pardus posting vids elsewhere on Islam, I thought this would be a good addition as it's in the same vein.

http://www.ibri.org/Books/1992-NNewman-Quran/1992-NNewman-Quran.pdf

 

[pardus]

Anyone read Churchill's take on Islam?