Guess SCAR is a done deal.

pardus

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I'm really ignorant to this situation.

Did they test the HK416?

What were the testing results with the HK and SCAR?

Is there a report out on the testing?

IS the SCAR going to all of SOCOM?
 
B

Boondocksaint375

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If all anyone used was google, there would be no point in having this site ;)
 

P. Beck

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Mistake not grace for mercy.
"You don't seem too happy ?"

Well, Rav, it's like this. I'm old. That makes me persnickety. I bet on horse races after they've been run. That's why on this last deployment I carried a regular old, rack-grade, solid plastic stock, M14 that had been made by Winchester in 1958. Stoked it with AP exclusively. Used iron sights out to and including 700M. It ain't a "death-ray" but it'll do till one gets here. Total failures of any kind: 0.0

I require two things of my weapons: 1) Reliable as sunrise. This is first and foremost. Non-negotiable. 2) As accurate as possible without violating requirement #1. Must shoot Minute-Of-Hajji, day or night, rain or shine, world without end, amen. 3) The round has got to be able to do the job when it gets there. Is there anyone who retains any lasting doubts about 7.62x51mm in this regard?

Truth is, I have seen enough aluminum gim-cracks, plastic goo-gaws and carbon-fiber whizz-bangs for one life-time. Enough to know that the summbitches asking me to bet my life on it won't be anywhere to be found when it gets upgefucht. I'd rather carry a few extra pounds and have the fuquer work when I need it, than go light with something that fails at random intervals.

Also, even though I have been in SF for fifteen of my eighteen years of AD, I am still a grunt at heart. You never quite lose the "Spirit of The Bayonet". The aggressive drive to close with and destroy the enemy still stirs within my loins. The thought of executing a horizontal butt-stroke or the smash to Mr. Hajji's noggin with an M4 or SCAR does not fill me with happiness.

As Boris "The Blade" says, "Heavy is good. Heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."
 

Crusader74

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"You don't seem too happy ?"

Well, Rav, it's like this. I'm old. That makes me persnickety. I bet on horse races after they've been run. That's why on this last deployment I carried a regular old, rack-grade, solid plastic stock, M14 that had been made by Winchester in 1958. Stoked it with AP exclusively. Used iron sights out to and including 700M. It ain't a "death-ray" but it'll do till one gets here. Total failures of any kind: 0.0

I require two things of my weapons: 1) Reliable as sunrise. This is first and foremost. Non-negotiable. 2) As accurate as possible without violating requirement #1. Must shoot Minute-Of-Hajji, day or night, rain or shine, world without end, amen. 3) The round has got to be able to do the job when it gets there. Is there anyone who retains any lasting doubts about 7.62x51mm in this regard?

Truth is, I have seen enough aluminum gim-cracks, plastic goo-gaws and carbon-fiber whizz-bangs for one life-time. Enough to know that the summbitches asking me to bet my life on it won't be anywhere to be found when it gets upgefucht. I'd rather carry a few extra pounds and have the fuquer work when I need it, than go light with something that fails at random intervals.

Also, even though I have been in SF for fifteen of my eighteen years of AD, I am still a grunt at heart. You never quite lose the "Spirit of The Bayonet". The aggressive drive to close with and destroy the enemy still stirs within my loins. The thought of executing a horizontal butt-stroke or the smash to Mr. Hajji's noggin with an M4 or SCAR does not fill me with happiness.

As Boris "The Blade" says, "Heavy is good. Heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."

Mr Hajj!! LMAO!!

So I guess you won't be getting a SCAR so..lol
 

pardus

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Is there anyone who retains any lasting doubts about 7.62x51mm in this regard?

I love that round, I'd take it as my round of choice. However there were some reports from the Falklands war about the round not doing what was expected of it.
 

pardus

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Are you Sure? Compared to what?

Yes.

Who was comparing?

Wanker! :D

Now that you brought it up, the 7.62 was compared to the .303 and came up unfavourably.
There were several instances where the 7.62 simply wasn't knocking people down.
If I had my choice I wouldnt use an AP round as it doesnt deform as well as a standard round for that very reason, if is doesnt hit anything hard or vital it will pop straight through with minimal damage.
 

Ravage

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It will be funny (or not) when the SCAR will not be as "high speed" as every gun freak "know-it-all" (some one like that asshat Remov) wants it to be, and SOF dudes will just go back to the SOPMOD system.
 

P. Beck

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Mistake not grace for mercy.
"There were several instances where the 7.62 simply wasn't knocking people down."
"If I had my choice I wouldnt use an AP round as it doesnt deform as well as a standard round for that very reason, if is doesnt hit anything hard or vital it will pop straight through with minimal damage."

1) "Knockdown" is a myth. Action = reaction remember? If the bullet was capable of knocking someone down the recoil would knock down the shooter.

2) Bullets poke holes. Period. Big holes are better than small holes. 7.62mm > 5.56mm. Two holes (entrance and exit) are better, and bleed more, than one hole (entrance).

3) The single biggest deciding factor in dropping the bad guy is shot placement. Most accounts of rounds failing to stop involve peripheral hits. You gotta hit 'em in the boiler room. Preferably through a major blood-bearing organ.

3) I used M993 AP exclusively for two reasons: a) because it re-defined cover. It consistently penetrated whatever Mr. Hajji got behind with sufficiently energy remaining to poke one or more holes in him. Vehicle bodies, mud walls, etc. didn't matter. No place to hide. b) with a bullet weight of 126 grains, the M993 has a lighter recoil than either M80 ball or M118 Special Ball and a muzzle velocity of 2,950 fps. At close distances the round would go side ways in soft tissue and then come apart.

In my experience, everybody I hit with it was DRT.
 

pardus

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1) "Knockdown" is a myth. Action = reaction remember? If the bullet was capable of knocking someone down the recoil would knock down the shooter.

2) Bullets poke holes. Period. Big holes are better than small holes. 7.62mm > 5.56mm. Two holes (entrance and exit) are better, and bleed more, than one hole (entrance).

3) The single biggest deciding factor in dropping the bad guy is shot placement. Most accounts of rounds failing to stop involve peripheral hits. You gotta hit 'em in the boiler room. Preferably through a major blood-bearing organ.

3) I used M993 AP exclusively for two reasons: a) because it re-defined cover. It consistently penetrated whatever Mr. Hajji got behind with sufficiently energy remaining to poke one or more holes in him. Vehicle bodies, mud walls, etc. didn't matter. No place to hide. b) with a bullet weight of 126 grains, the M993 has a lighter recoil than either M80 ball or M118 Special Ball and a muzzle velocity of 2,950 fps. At close distances the round would go side ways in soft tissue and then come apart.

In my experience, everybody I hit with it was DRT.

As for "Knockdown" you are of course quite correct, the "knockdown" factor is simply the bodies reaction to being shot.

2) Bullets poke holes. Period. Big holes are better than small holes. 7.62mm > 5.56mm. Two holes (entrance and exit) are better, and bleed more, than one hole (entrance).

The size of the hole is a minimal factor, it's what the bullet does inside the body that makes the difference.
A 5.56 that yaws/tumbles etc... does a lot more damage than a undeformed 7.62 that goes straight through (providing it does'nt hit anything hard).

As for the two hole vs one hole thing, remember if the bullet leaves the body it looses all that energy as opposed to a bullet that remains inside, again, if is has stopped its because it has tumbled and fucked up shit inside inherantly causing more damage than two clean holes.

3) The single biggest deciding factor in dropping the bad guy is shot placement. Most accounts of rounds failing to stop involve peripheral hits. You gotta hit 'em in the boiler room. Preferably through a major blood-bearing organ.

The best place to be hit providing it doesnt take out a lung is the chest cavity, lots of room for expansion and a lack of tissue damage as one would find in a bullet to a muscle.

Interesting about the AP round...

Like I said with my earlier post, I love the 7.62 round, its the only round I want to go to war with, but it aint perfect.

I think a lot more rounds down an active 'range' are needed as part of this study :D

Haji # 3 please step forward }:-)
 
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WillBrink

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A 5.56 that yaws/tumbles etc... does a lot more damage than a undeformed 7.62 that goes straight through (providing it does'nt hit anything hard).

If I can add a thought with possible side track to this thread; The terminal ballistics of the 5.56 with its impressive yaw and fragmentation and resulting wound channel was developed from the very high velocities achieved from the M16. However, the M4 configuration brings into question some issues worth noting and at distance, tend to poke nice little holes but fail to yah and fragment:

“Shorter barreled assault rifles have a muzzle velocity below the critical level so rounds fired from these will not fragment and will produce reduced wounding and incapacitation. There is some evidence that these bullets will not tumble either, and behave like small calibre FMJ pistol rounds. Minimum barrel length for use with FMJ rounds seems to be 14.5". Tests show a 55gr M193 fired from a M4 with a 14.5" barrel has a muzzle velocity 2,850fps and fragments. The same round fired from a G36K with a 12.5" barrel has a muzzle velocity of 2,650fps and very little fragmentation. Note that the current issue M855 62gr round has a lower muzzle velocity than a M193. Range at which fragmentation will occur with either round from 14.5" barrels is probably less than 100m”

Cont:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

Just some food for thought on the issue….
 
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