Israel and Iran

[R.Caerbannog]

I visited Nahal Oz, one of the locations hit by Hamas on Oct 7th, briefly last year when I was on our annual Yale/West Point trip to Israel and Palestine. Between that, and having two teenage-ish daughters, this was a particularly difficult read.
Horrifying new footage shows Hamas kidnappers threatening women

Hey Mara, I know it's good to build ties with other nations. But what are we getting out of our relationship with Israel? Ever since we deepened ties with them they've dragged us into their proxy wars with the Arabs, infiltrated our institutions, and generally caused problems.

I think we all know that the Islamic world is a threat, but what's the point of having "allies" that will happily stab us in the back?

A couple years ago, before the Epstein intel shenanigans and AIPAC things dropped, I'd have applauded our ties with Israel. Now, I dunno how comfortable I feel with our Ivy Leagues and War Colleges being associated with them. Just seems like another way for them to infiltrate.

The Fact those idiots across the colleges support these animals is upsetting as hell

You do realize that they're all "animals" right? For years Israeli intelligence did similar shit to young American girls.

No one in the ME is our friend, some are better at hiding their savagery than others.

Question . . . (Genuine, no sarcasm)

Can you support the Palestinian people without being in support of Hammas?

Think of it like this, Hamas is a reaction to Jewish expansion. Let's say you and your family have been living in the same area for hundreds of years. Then one day a foreign govt drops off a boatload of people onto a nearby Indian reservation. Said reservation starts to violently expand until your people are backed into a tiny corner of your town. What would you do?

Reason I say this is because there are two sides to every story. Israel, in this case, just happened to pick the strongest backer.

 

[AWP]

Maybe I'm underthinking history, but I've always viewed the US/ Israeli relationship against 2 backdrops: the Holocaust and the Cold War. Emotional vs. Strategic. US vs. USSR. Proxy wars.

Trickle down, 2nd, 3rd, 4th order effects, it spirals out from there.

 

[CQB]

This is actually an area of International law that I am intimately familiar with, so I'll weigh in.

So, for those who know next to nothing about the ICC, it was established via the Rome Statute for the expressed purpose of "Nuremberg-ing" anybody that tried to do something heinous. Key verbiage in the Rome Statute can be found in Article 4.2,

"The Court may exercise its functions and powers, as provided in this Statute, on the territory of any State Party and, by special agreement, on the territory of any other State."

As per the usual with any U.N. Body, the org likes to try and do more than it gave itself permission to do, see the UN General Assembly. Now, international law is complex and ambiguous. Customary International Law. Leaving that there in case I want to come back to it in the future.

Soooooo, Israel is a non-signatory as you have correctly identified. HOWEVER...this is why nations like Ireland, Norway, and Spain's recent recognition of "Palestine" as a state is a problem...theoretically, "Palestine" if eventually recognized as a sovereign state by the UN, could then become a signatory to the Rome Statue and give them jurisdiction within the territories of "Palestine" which would be another headache the Israeli's would have to deal with.

Side Tangent: to be a state you must fulfill 4 requirements according to the Monetevideo Convention.
1. a permanent population
2. a defined territory
3. government
4. capacity to enter into relations with the other states

"Palestine" has never existed because it has never managed to accomplish those four criteria. Moving on.

Practically speaking, the ICC relies on other nations for enforcement. However, while detaining an official of any other nation would instantly become an international incident, the ICC gives you more cover. "Oh, we wouldn't have but the ICC said we needed to because war crimes."

Odds are it wouldn't happen, but the stakes if it were to happen would be catastrophic. IMHO, this is not nothing from an international law perspective and should be taken seriously.

Thanks for the quick 5. The lack of a defined border has always been a bit of a giggle for me. It occurred to me that ISIS had more of a claim to be a functioning state.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Maybe I'm underthinking history, but I've always viewed the US/ Israeli relationship against 2 backdrops: the Holocaust and the Cold War. Emotional vs. Strategic. US vs. USSR. Proxy wars.

Trickle down, 2nd, 3rd, 4th order effects, it spirals out from there.

The fact that the Holocaust is constantly brought up as some sort of emotional defense/excuse for Jewish bad behavior is another thing that is very interesting. It's ironic that the people genocided in Europe have been genociding people in their own backyard for the past 70 years.

Not to mention the atrocities this same group committed during the reign of the USSR.

 

[Devildoc]

The fact that the Holocaust is constantly brought up as some sort of emotional defense/excuse for Jewish bad behavior is another thing that is very interesting. It's ironic that the people genocided in Europe have been genociding people in their own backyard for the past 70 years.

Not to mention the atrocities this same group committed during the reign of the USSR.

I think it's intellectually dishonest to claim that the Holocaust is used as a defense/excuse for Jewish bad behavior. I think whatever guilt the Western nations had over not accepting Jews before and during World War II was assuaged by helping them create Israel.

And also dishonest to claim that Israel is practicing genocide, which is the attempt to exterminate an entire race of people.

I think the benefits of the relationship have been pretty tangible. Now that said, we're not BFFs and Israel is going to do what it needs to do, which is often counter to what the US would want. That's the game. Sometimes an abusive relationship.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

I think it's intellectually dishonest to claim that the Holocaust is used as a defense/excuse for Jewish bad behavior. I think whatever guilt the Western nations had over not accepting Jews before and during World War II was assuaged by helping them create Israel.

And also dishonest to claim that Israel is practicing genocide, which is the attempt to exterminate an entire race of people.

I think the benefits of the relationship have been pretty tangible. Now that said, we're not BFFs and Israel is going to do what it needs to do, which is often counter to what the US would want. That's the game. Sometimes an abusive relationship.

I dunno man. According to the old convention what the Israeli's have been doing to their neighbors kinda fits the bill.

"In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly."

Dude, they were recently using the Holocaust as way to pass an asinine anti-Semitism bill in Congress. The Holocaust is absolutely used as a way to emotionally manipulate people into looking the other way at bad Jewish behavior.

 

[Jaknight]

Hey Mara, I know it's good to build ties with other nations. But what are we getting out of our relationship with Israel? Ever since we deepened ties with them they've dragged us into their proxy wars with the Arabs, infiltrated our institutions, and generally caused problems.

I think we all know that the Islamic world is a threat, but what's the point of having "allies" that will happily stab us in the back?

A couple years ago, before the Epstein intel shenanigans and AIPAC things dropped, I'd have applauded our ties with Israel. Now, I dunno how comfortable I feel with our Ivy Leagues and War Colleges being associated with them. Just seems like another way for them to infiltrate.


You do realize that they're all "animals" right? For years Israeli intelligence did similar shit to young American girls.

No one in the ME is our friend, some are better at hiding their savagery than others.


Think of it like this, Hamas is a reaction to Jewish expansion. Let's say you and your family have been living in the same area for hundreds of years. Then one day a foreign govt drops off a boatload of people onto a nearby Indian reservation. Said reservation starts to violently expand until your people are backed into a tiny corner of your town. What would you do?

Reason I say this is because there are two sides to every story. Israel, in this case, just happened to pick the strongest backer.

Didn't they offer to create two states for them, and the Palestinians refused? Not only refused, but they also violently tried to wipe the Jews out. Also, didn't the Ottoman control the area yet never made a state of Palestine?

 

[ThunderHorse]

Didn't they offer to create two states for them, and the Palestinians refused? Not only refused, but they also violently tried to wipe the Jews out. Also, didn't the Ottoman control the area yet never made a state of Palestine?

Correct.

I dunno man. According to the old convention what the Israeli's have been doing to their neighbors kinda fits the bill.

"In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly."

Dude, they were recently using the Holocaust as way to pass an asinine anti-Semitism bill in Congress. The Holocaust is absolutely used as a way to emotionally manipulate people into looking the other way at bad Jewish behavior.

Not sure why you have a hard on for Israel, the person to commit genocidal acts here is Hamas. Hamas lays down their arms this is over. Israel has no bombing campaign in the West Bank, they are not trying to murder every Palestinian, they're trying to end Hamas ability to murder and rape Israelis, end their ability to make war.

What do we get out of it? An installation on Mt Keren and a munitions storage site. We also get a relatively friendly ally that holds a lot of the same values. It also keep our Arab allies in "check". But consider that there is Lebanon and Syria next to them, they are a counter to Hezbollah and Assad (let's just call it a counter to Iran). So we get plenty...also a sick place to vacation I hear.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Didn't they offer to create two states for them, and the Palestinians refused? Not only refused, but they also violently tried to wipe the Jews out. Also, didn't the Ottoman control the area yet never made a state of Palestine?

If someone came into your home, brutalized you, and took ownership of your home, would you bend the knee to them and live under their rule? There is a reason why the Palestinians want the Israeli's out, why the Iranians have a foothold in the area, and why the Soviets leveraged Islamic fundamentalism in the Cold War.

Yes the Ottomans controlled that area, they also controlled an area that encompassed land from the Black Sea to the Southern part of the Red Sea. It's irrelevant though. It still doesn't give the Jewish people the right to wipe out the Islamic and Christian people that had settled and lived peacefully.

 

[Jaknight]

If someone came into your home, brutalized you, and took ownership of your home, would you bend the knee to them and live under their rule? There is a reason why the Palestinians want the Israeli's out, why the Iranians have a foothold in the area, and why the Soviets leveraged Islamic fundamentalism in the Cold War.

Yes the Ottomans controlled that area, they also controlled an area that encompassed land from the Black Sea to the Southern part of the Red Sea. It's irrelevant though. It still doesn't give the Jewish people the right to wipe out the Islamic and Christian people that had settled and lived peacefully.

If someone came into your home, brutalized you, and took ownership of your home, would you bend the knee to them and live under their rule? There is a reason why the Palestinians want the Israeli's out, why the Iranians have a foothold in the area, and why the Soviets leveraged Islamic fundamentalism in the Cold War.

Yes the Ottomans controlled that area, they also controlled an area that encompassed land from the Black Sea to the Southern part of the Red Sea. It's irrelevant though. It still doesn't give the Jewish people the right to wipe out the Islamic and Christian people that had settled and lived peacefully.

think it is relevant, though. They had hundreds of years of being ruled by an Islamic power, and yet not once did they form a state. And like I said, they had numerous chances and instead have chosen repeatedly to wage war against Israel. And speaking of rights, does Palestine have a right to wipe out Israel?

 

[ThunderHorse]

If someone came into your home, brutalized you, and took ownership of your home, would you bend the knee to them and live under their rule? There is a reason why the Palestinians want the Israeli's out, why the Iranians have a foothold in the area, and why the Soviets leveraged Islamic fundamentalism in the Cold War.

Yes the Ottomans controlled that area, they also controlled an area that encompassed land from the Black Sea to the Southern part of the Red Sea. It's irrelevant though. It still doesn't give the Jewish people the right to wipe out the Islamic and Christian people that had settled and lived peacefully.

No, they lost the war and then chose to be terrorists for the remainder of their existence. Remember, the West Bank for Jordanian, Jordan wants nothing to do with their former citizens. And Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Not sure why you have a hard on for Israel, the person to commit genocidal acts here is Hamas. Hamas lays down their arms this is over. Israel has no bombing campaign in the West Bank, they are not trying to murder every Palestinian, they're trying to end Hamas ability to murder and rape Israelis, end their ability to make war.

What do we get out of it? An installation on Mt Keren and a munitions storage site. We also get a relatively friendly ally that holds a lot of the same values. It also keep our Arab allies in "check". But consider that there is Lebanon and Syria next to them, they are a counter to Hezbollah and Assad (let's just call it a counter to Iran). So we get plenty...also a sick place to vacation I hear.

Because just like Hamas, Israel is a subversive outside force that has have done irreparable damage to our nation. Go back and read what our ally thinks of us, their past operations, and business transactions with China.

An unreliable ally, a small base, and a place to vacation, isn't worth kids being sexually exploited to blackmail US politicians. Nor does it make sense to finance a nation that willfully subverts our nation.

The Jeffrey Epstein Scandal

think it is relevant, though. They had hundreds of years of being ruled by an Islamic power, and yet not once did they form a state. And like I said, they had numerous chances and instead have chosen repeatedly to wage war against Israel. And speaking of rights, does Palestine have a right to wipe out Israel?

Because they were ruled by an Islamic state... then the Brits took over and foisted the idea of Israel to the world. Remember Israel didn't exist as a nation until 1948. If you wanna go down a rabbit hole look up the formation of Israel from the Balfour Declaration, to the British Mandate, and later Israel's Declaration and War for Independence. Historically the Jews were the terrorists. I don't know why it's been whitewashed now though.

Again would you bend the knee?

Add on: Both groups suck and they need to learn to live with each other.

No, they lost the war and then chose to be terrorists for the remainder of their existence. Remember, the West Bank for Jordanian, Jordan wants nothing to do with their former citizens. And Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza.

The Jordanians want nothing to do with the Palestinians due to the radicalization of these people by the Israelis, economic issues, and access to water. Egypt shares many of the same concerns and it's in worse financial shape.

 

[ThunderHorse]

The Jordanians want nothing to do with the Palestinians due to the radicalization of these people by the Israelis, economic issues, and access to water. Egypt shares many of the same concerns and it's in worse financial shape.

No, their faith radicalizes them. Their entire faith is built around "jihad". Or we're gonna say that Biden radicalizes conservatives and blame Biden for whatever the hell they do?

 

[R.Caerbannog]

No, their faith radicalizes them. Their entire faith is built around "jihad". Or we're gonna say that Biden radicalizes conservatives and blame Biden for whatever the hell they do?

The same can be said of the Judaism. Remember the part about non Jews being "Goyim"? That said, we can't ignore the economic and resource aspects of why these two countries don't want the Palestinians.

 

[Jaknight]

Because just like Hamas, Israel is a subversive outside force that has have done irreparable damage to our nation. Go back and read what our ally thinks of us, their past operations, and business transactions with China.

An unreliable ally, a small base, and a place to vacation, isn't worth kids being sexually exploited to blackmail US politicians. Nor does it make sense to finance a nation that willfully subverts our nation.

The Jeffrey Epstein Scandal


Because they were ruled by an Islamic state... then the Brits took over and foisted the idea of Israel to the world. Remember Israel didn't exist as a nation until 1948. If you wanna go down a rabbit hole look up the formation of Israel from the Balfour Declaration, to the British Mandate, and later Israel's Declaration and War for Independence. Historically the Jews were the terrorists. I don't know why it's been whitewashed now though.

Again would you bend the knee?

Add on: Both groups suck and they need to learn to live with each other.


The Jordanians want nothing to do with the Palestinians due to the radicalization of these people by the Israelis, economic issues, and access to water. Egypt shares many of the same concerns and it's in worse financial shape.

The Jews had a homeland and a nation till the Romans kicked them out. Palestine sat on what was once Judea, and for thousands of years, the Jews had no home. So yes, they were given a homeland by the dominant power of the time, and it was confirmed by the next great powers. The Palestinians may not like it, but they had numerous chances to become a nation and still wish to wage war. What do you think Palestine would do if they had an army like Israel? I think they would proceed with their lifelong dream of wiping out the Jews

 

[R.Caerbannog]

The Jews had a homeland and a nation till the Romans kicked them out. Palestine sat on what was once Judea, and for thousands of years, the Jews had no home. So yes, they were given a homeland by the dominant power of the time, and it was confirmed by the next great powers. The Palestinians may not like it, but they had numerous chances to become a nation and still wish to wage war. What do you think Palestine would do if they had an army like Israel? I think they would proceed with their lifelong dream of wiping out the Jews

You should study up on why the Jews had no home for a thousand plus years. Why they were kicked out of Spain (Al-Andalus), Europe, or why the Romans destroyed them and the formation of the Rabbinical teachings after the burning of the Temple. I'd recommend "A Goy Guide to World History".

The other thing to note, is that area of the world has been conquered and reconquered by many different groups. The people inhabiting those areas have remained mostly the same though. Saying that Palestinians don't have and don't deserve nationhood, because they refuse to bend the knee to Jewish rule, is part of why groups like Hamas exist.

Stepping back and removing emotion from the equation will let you see why both sides act the way they do. Neither Israel or Hamas are innocent, nor are they allies, and you better believe both will bring their bullshit stateside.

 

[757]

I'm currently in Raleigh visiting in-laws and celebrating my kids birthdays, so I'm typing from my phone and can't cite sources as easily, so please forgive me. That said, a couple of key points.

1) Genocide and ethnic cleansing are different. A good example of ethnic cleansing can actually be attributed to the IDF when they forcibly removed Jewish citizens from their homes in Gaza for the prospect of peace. Genocide is a highly specialized term that is being thrown around Willy nilly.

2) Israel's borders were created thanks to the British mandate of palestine. The Brits had to separate the territory and decided to give 70% to the Arabs and 30% to the Jews, who had already been legally purchasing land.

3) the Arabs did not want a Jewish state and rejected deals that lessened the Jews territory held within that original 30%, also the Jews were mostly receiving the desert portions of the land. Water is critical in that part of the world.

4) ever since the Palestinians "came into existence" after 1948, they have managed to damage everything they touched. Plane hijackings, black September, bus bombings, the destabilization of Christian Lebannon into the crap hole it currently is, etc.

5) every previous enemy of the Jews that has wanted peace has gotten it. The problem here isn't the Israelies, it's the Palestinians.

 

[Jaknight]

You should study up on why the Jews had no home for a thousand plus years. Why they were kicked out of Spain (Al-Andalus), Europe, or why the Romans destroyed them and the formation of the Rabbinical teachings after the burning of the Temple. I'd recommend "A Goy Guide to World History".

The other thing to note, is that area of the world has been conquered and reconquered by many different groups. The people inhabiting those areas have remained mostly the same though. Saying that Palestinians don't have and don't deserve nationhood, because they refuse to bend the knee to Jewish rule, is part of why groups like Hamas exist.

Stepping back and removing emotion from the equation will let you see why both sides act the way they do. Neither Israel or Hamas are innocent, nor are they allies, and you better believe both will bring their bullshit stateside.

I’m saying the Palestinians have had chances for State hood and have slapped that hand away repeatedly.

 

[ThunderHorse]

You should study up on why the Jews had no home for a thousand plus years. Why they were kicked out of Spain (Al-Andalus), Europe, or why the Romans destroyed them and the formation of the Rabbinical teachings after the burning of the Temple. I'd recommend "A Goy Guide to World History".

The other thing to note, is that area of the world has been conquered and reconquered by many different groups. The people inhabiting those areas have remained mostly the same though. Saying that Palestinians don't have and don't deserve nationhood, because they refuse to bend the knee to Jewish rule, is part of why groups like Hamas exist.

Stepping back and removing emotion from the equation will let you see why both sides act the way they do. Neither Israel or Hamas are innocent, nor are they allies, and you better believe both will bring their bullshit stateside.

Palestinians have been less than tolerated by every government that has ruled them, they are the most radical that can be and they cannot be tamed.

Ottomans didn't want them, KSA didn't want them, Jordan didn't want them.

But yeah the problem is the Jews.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Palestinians have been less than tolerated by every government that has ruled them, they are the most radical that can be and they cannot be tamed.

Ottomans didn't want them, KSA didn't want them, Jordan didn't want them.

But yeah the problem is the Jews.

Again, both groups have killed and brutalized Americans. One just has a better PR department.

Don't let emotion get the better of you. At the end of the day both groups are still people.