Orlando shooting

We have this elsewhere, but this IS the Orlando thread.

DOJ to scrub Islam references from transcripts of Orlando terrorist's calls to police | Fox News



What the FUCK?!?!?!

As I type this CNN has two small stories related to Orland, both buried well down the page. I think Fox is no different that any other "news" corporation with an agenda, but for CNN to drop the story? Yeah, no agenda going on here....:rolleyes:

ETA: The Orlando paper has also removed Lynch's promise to remove the references.

Orlando gunman's conversations with police from inside nightclub to be released

Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia...
 
We are still being flooded with illegals, mainly from other countries who travel through Mexico.
Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese are 3 of the top 4.
Chinese take IT jobs, then steal all our intellectual data; Pakistanis are just not who I want running through my yard at night.

In reference to the "Other Than Mexicans" deportable aliens that entered in FY15, the numbers are quite significant, but I'm curious where you got your info from.
 
Orlando Police Chief, "... misconception that we didn't do anything for 3 hours..." He also noted that there was no shooting during the 3 hours.

How many people bled out in he 3 hours?

I'd bet it's a very large number.

eta-
"It takes time to set up an explosive entry, those things take time."

Wow, his excuse game is weak. Good for him, the press' game is weaker.
 
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There could have been political factors like... need the mayor's approval to rescue the hostages or some similar bs. People will say you weren't there, you shouldn't Monday morning quarterback, but some of what apparently happened sounds ridiculous. 3 hours to setup the breach, and trying to negotiate with someone that gunned down tens of people already (instead of say, an angered spouse that shot 1 person). People definitely bled out, and it's already been more or less confirmed that the responding officers shot and killed bystanders. The FBI SAIC tried to deflect the question and the Orlando police chief said "well those deaths are on the gunman". He's not very bright, at least with his media skills.
Orlando Police Chief, "... misconception that we didn't do anything for 3 hours..." He also noted that there was no shooting during the 3 hours.

How many people bled out in he 3 hours?

I'd bet it's a very large number.

eta-
"It takes time to set up an explosive entry, those things take time."

Wow, his excuse game is weak. Good for him, the press' game is weaker.
 
We have this elsewhere, but this IS the Orlando thread.

DOJ to scrub Islam references from transcripts of Orlando terrorist's calls to police | Fox News



What the FUCK?!?!?!

As I type this CNN has two small stories related to Orland, both buried well down the page. I think Fox is no different that any other "news" corporation with an agenda, but for CNN to drop the story? Yeah, no agenda going on here....:rolleyes:

ETA: The Orlando paper has also removed Lynch's promise to remove the references.

Orlando gunman's conversations with police from inside nightclub to be released

Seriously, what's the problem?
 
@ke4gde , would you be happier if some more of the wounded bled out on the floor?

Or are you happy that they died and the police stayed safe?

Just wondering, you don't have to answer.
 
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People will say you weren't there, you shouldn't Monday morning quarterback...
I agree, there are a few parrots around here who will repeat this line.

After over 100 people were just shot on their watch, then left to bleed out, the LE leaders stand around and have a congratulatory circle jerk about how well prepared they were and what a great job they all did.

Oh well, don't question it.
 
@ke4gde , would you be happier if some of the wounded bled out on the floor?

Or are you happy that they died and the police stayed safe?

Just wondering, you don't have to answer.
Look, I am trying to be respectful of you, your knowledge base, and how hard you worked to earn that green tag. However, your responses have shown a misinformation as to the realities and protocols for active shooter responses. If you honestly believe I would rather have innocent citizens bleeding out than to be rescued then you insult me. Instead, I am going to take it as you are frustrated at the lack of information and the lack of what you perceive should be done.

As I said earlier, when responding to an active shooter, the first units on scene are typically trained to engage the active shooter and neutralize him, or contain him. Medical support is not given until the scene is secured, or a way to protect the medics presents itself. This is why firefighters and EMTs stage outside of the danger zone and don't rush in. If possible, follow up officers will arrive and form up as medical teams to provide aid to fallen citizens. Was this procedure followed to the letter? Probably not as each situation is different and can become very fluid. I am smart enough to know that I don't know the exact way it should have been handled because I wasn't there and I wasn't in command. Likely, if there was a 3 hour delay for a breach it could be explained as incompetence, delay in getting SWAT into position, politics, negotiations, casualty evacuation, or the fickle finger of murphy fate. There are basic principals for dealing with an active shooter that are nationwide. Each jurisdiction is free to modify their protocols as they see fit for their areas of responsibility.

Let me ask you this. Would you be happier if the cops rushed in under fire and ignored the threat to provide aid? I doubt it. A lot of good it would do to have several first responders go down from being sloppy and adding to the already chaotic scene. Civilian policing/action is different from typical battlefield engagements. You can sit here and Monday morning quarterback what took place (without knowing damn all what happened) all you like. The fact remains that you have no idea what happened, what should have occurred, or why certain decisions were made. If the cops fucked up, they will likely be brought to account. I am not justifying anything that was or was not done that night. However, your posturing and blustering rings of a 15 year old in his basement trying to say what he would do. No offense, but if you're mad about what happened then I share your anger and frustration. Otherwise you are just talking shit about fellow brothers and sisters (yours and mine) that ran to the sound of the guns. Which is all we can hope to do in a fucked up situation such as what happened that night.
 
Etype isn't saying they should have rushed in to give aid. He's saying that they decided to not try to neutralize the threat... for 3 hours, and the police chief gave the excuse that it took that long to setup the breach. I've talked to cops that said that because he "stopped shooting" he became a "barricaded suspect" instead of an active shooter and that's why they negotiated with him. When someone has just committed mass murder and takes hostages, and there are very probably wounded with him that are bleeding out, he needs to be taken out. I think what a lot of people don't understand (LEOs included) is that this is more of a military situation than a law enforcement one. It is war on U.S. soil. Unfortunately, there is only one LE organization I know of that has similar qualifications to military units that specialize in these missions, and that organization can't be everywhere. So, we're basically screwed if a motivated individual wants to carry out an attack like this. Law Enforcement is not trained or equipped to handle it. And unless some magic excuse comes out, this is a perfect example of that.

Look, I am trying to be respectful of you, your knowledge base, and how hard you worked to earn that green tag. However, your responses have shown a misinformation as to the realities and protocols for active shooter responses. If you honestly believe I would rather have innocent citizens bleeding out than to be rescued then you insult me. Instead, I am going to take it as you are frustrated at the lack of information and the lack of what you perceive should be done.

As I said earlier, when responding to an active shooter, the first units on scene are typically trained to engage the active shooter and neutralize him, or contain him. Medical support is not given until the scene is secured, or a way to protect the medics presents itself. This is why firefighters and EMTs stage outside of the danger zone and don't rush in. If possible, follow up officers will arrive and form up as medical teams to provide aid to fallen citizens. Was this procedure followed to the letter? Probably not as each situation is different and can become very fluid. I am smart enough to know that I don't know the exact way it should have been handled because I wasn't there and I wasn't in command. Likely, if there was a 3 hour delay for a breach it could be explained as incompetence, delay in getting SWAT into position, politics, negotiations, casualty evacuation, or the fickle finger of murphy fate. There are basic principals for dealing with an active shooter that are nationwide. Each jurisdiction is free to modify their protocols as they see fit for their areas of responsibility.

Let me ask you this. Would you be happier if the cops rushed in under fire and ignored the threat to provide aid? I doubt it. A lot of good it would do to have several first responders go down from being sloppy and adding to the already chaotic scene. Civilian policing/action is different from typical battlefield engagements. You can sit here and Monday morning quarterback what took place (without knowing damn all what happened) all you like. The fact remains that you have no idea what happened, what should have occurred, or why certain decisions were made. If the cops fucked up, they will likely be brought to account. I am not justifying anything that was or was not done that night. However, your posturing and blustering rings of a 15 year old in his basement trying to say what he would do. No offense, but if you're mad about what happened then I share your anger and frustration. Otherwise you are just talking shit about fellow brothers and sisters (yours and mine) that ran to the sound of the guns. Which is all we can hope to do in a fucked up situation such as what happened that night.
 
Etype isn't saying they should have rushed in to give aid. He's saying that they decided to not try to neutralize the threat... for 3 hours, and the police chief gave the excuse that it took that long to setup the breach. I've talked to cops that said that because he "stopped shooting" he became a "barricaded suspect" instead of an active shooter and that's why they negotiated with him. When someone has just committed mass murder and takes hostages, and there are very probably wounded with him that are bleeding out, he needs to be taken out. I think what a lot of people don't understand (LEOs included) is that this is more of a military situation than a law enforcement one. It is war on U.S. soil. Unfortunately, there is only one LE organization I know of that has similar qualifications to military units that specialize in these missions, and that organization can't be everywhere. So, we're basically screwed if a motivated individual wants to carry out an attack like this. Law Enforcement is not trained or equipped to handle it. And unless some magic excuse comes out, this is a perfect example of that.
The cops you spoke to were correct. It was a barricaded suspect with hostages. In order to save the hostages he had, it was necessary to get assets into position while negotiating. With hostages are in play, the officers and administration must also be concerned with legal matters regarding how they respond to the barricaded suspect. They could be held criminally and civilly liable for gross misconduct/negligence regarding the hostages. The same is not true of the military when conducting operations overseas in combat zones. Generally speaking, the military is free form local prosecution and only answers to the UCMJ.

This was not a military situation in any way shape or form. If it were then the military would have had jurisdiction and all domestic laws would have been suspended. While the various terrorist attacks on home soil may constitute a war (in an abstract sense), this situation was not a war, nor was it a war zone in and of itself. This attack was no different than any other shooting/hostage scenario this country has seen in the last 30-40 years. The only thing that was different here was the motivation for the attack compared to other situations. While I completely agree that LE are not trained the same as the military, LE is generally equipped to handle these types of scenarios as they usually out number, and out gun the opposition while controlling the surrounding area.

If there is blame to assign, it rests with the club owner, the FBI, and DHS for the various background investigations that were conducted that turned up red flags on the suspect.
 
"Uh, disregard our last."

Orlando shooting 911 call: FBI releases full transcript - CNN.com

But after news organizations and public officials like Republican House Leader Paul Ryan complained, the agency released the full, unredacted transcript of the call in the afternoon.

In explaining its change of mind, the FBI said in a news release: "As much of this information had been previously reported, we have re-issued the complete transcript to include these references in order to provide the highest level of transparency possible under the circumstances."

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
 
"The police are too militarized."
Months later, Pulse happens
"Why didn't the police do more?"

I'll admit I don't have answers to this conundrum, but America needs to fish or cut bait on this issue. LEO's need more training (duh), but I dare say agencies need to rethink how they handle these shootings. I think we saw a "one size fits all" approach in ORL and I don't see how that's the right answer. TTP's and policies need to change because the world has changed. Bureaucratic inertia may keep a ship on course, but LE agencies should start thinking along new, and grim, lines.
 
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