What ammo was that shot group shot with, and what barrel are you using? Are those 1 inch pasters on that target? I am very intrested in whatever info you can bring to the topic.
HOLLiS
Verified Military
Often. let say 1000 M shooters do not try to hit the bull, it is the group that is measured. Hitting the bull will only degrade the sight picture. Also some times, a person does not adjust for distance. Let say I zero at 200M. The I will shoot 300, 400, 500 and 600. Using my mil dot scope. It is close to the bull, within a kill zone but not necessary in the bull.
My guess, with that group, he did not sight it in for that range. It is a good group, depending. Range and target size pending.
Swordsman, get someone to photograph you behind the rifle in the same position that group was shot from. Take a pic from each side, and the back. Take a shot from the front with the rifle unloaded, bolt to the rear and safe so the cameraman doesn't take one by accident. Post the pics on here when you get done. Or even better, if you can get someone to video you would be great. What ammo are you using? At 100m, that group should all be on one pastie.
swordsman
Unverified
ok, the poi is a little low because this group has been shot to test ab ebi-arms compensator, norm my bullets hit a bit higher i zero at 50meters.
the ebiarms brake is no good choice for ar15 to big and to heavy but quite nice for big bore guns like my short k98 in 8x57is or my tikka t3 in 30-06.
-> http://www.ebiarms.de/
standart H&K mr223 barrel (twist 1-7), pmc bronze linie 55grn fmj-bt, the pasters ar Ø19mm, distance to terget 100m, bad light conditions.
check out my youtube channel -> http://www.youtube.com/user/stubenwurm?feature=mhum
you can find some vids, taken at a ipsc rifle match in the netherlands last year.
i've shoot on 50meters with an aimpoint and prvi partizan 75grn ppu match hp-bt some month ago and all shoots are in the Ø19mm paster.
im using this rifle normal only with an aimpoint or the 1-4x22 meopta meostar k-dot so its hard to bild tight groups with cheap ammo and only the max magnification of 4 and the big center of the k-dot.
when i bought the rifle in 2008 i shoot remington premier 62grn hp with tight groups, now the ammo prices explodes and i prefer a cheaper round. ipsc rifle is no marksman contest, last year i used prvi partizan 55grn fmj-bt and was able to hit on a 300m stage only alphas an the 300m far targets and the performance of the prvi is shit compared to the pmc.
swordsman
Unverified
oh i forgot,
im waiting for 50grn brass solid rounds from impala for the deer (rehwild) hunting season starts on the first of may here in germany.
-> http://www.impalabullets.at/index_en.htm
im really exited how the bullets perform in my setup!
im waiting for 50grn brass solid rounds from impala for the deer (rehwild) hunting season starts on the first of may here in germany.
-> http://www.impalabullets.at/index_en.htm
im really exited how the bullets perform in my setup!
pardus
Verified Military
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 10,534
Roger.
So let’s here you’re input on the thread, I would like to here your opinions on the AR 15 GP vs DI and more over what differences you have seen between the two systems.
I do find it somewhat odd that you’re shooting groups like that after 5k rounds down the tube and using PMC ammo. I am going to buy some PMC Bronze and run it through my DMR and compare it performance to M855, before I comment any further.
Nice rifle by the way.
swordsman
Unverified
thanks!
im happy that i have choosen the piston system, i've seen sometimes that di rifles have malfunction from the dirt in the system. two times ive seen a guy shooting an di rifle, first time (with an oberland arms) after finishing a stage the ro says "open action" but the guy couldnt open, the last round was stuck in chamber, after firing this round in the dirt with the ro's permission he could finish "show clear" command, now starts the cleaning process, open the gun, using chamber brush -> cleaning! this was in 2009.
last year a different shooter, the same problem with a sabre defence rifle in my squad.
this kind of malfunction i dont know from my piston rifle because it runs clean!
the only malfunction caused by the rifle was, after i added a ebrv2 extended bolt catch, the bolt carrier stays not back in the open looking position after the last round, the hole for the pin was 4/10 mm away from where the original h&k bolt catch was. i removed the ebrv2 and attached the magpul bad lever over the original h&k bolt catch and it works fine again.
do you think the groups are to bad or to good for more than 5000shots? im not good in shooting bondaged to a table, when im in a store in future i buy a box of good (62grn or more) ammo and try it.
i think the h&k 416 (not available here in germany!) has a chrome lined barrel, the civilian mr223 not. but the first series have a big space between chamber and first twist, some think that causes poor precision. the first pictures i've seen 2008 are made by the gun seller "waffen centrale" he gets 5 shoots in a Ø19mm paster using a g3 flash hider and a 3-12x scope at 100meters. you can find the pics in the german forum "waffen online" search for mr223, its the largest german gun forum.
here in germany is a gun smith who has build a new piston system. the piston is direct in front on the upper reciver and gets the gas from a normal gas tube. i've seen the rifles on the IWA this year, but the guy is crazy, they want to sell this rifles for 3000€ or more, the most expensive ar i ever heard of. and there has been no bullet through the barrel till now, some here think this piston system wont work propper.
heres the webside -> http://www.dar-germany.com/ you can join the "dar event" and shoot this new rifle, if it works till then.
I would say that the gas piston accuracy issue that I saw could have been a reflection of the rifle/ammo match up we were using, but I also hear the same complaints of the accuracy degrading in other GP AR’s. So I tend to go with what I know, and like anything else my information could be very outdated at this point. I won’t proclaim to know it all, but I have had a good amount of experience with shooting, building and developing accuracy out of an AR platform.
I personally do not own a piston AR b/c I do not feel I have a need for one, my DI’s run just fine. That’s not to say I won’t ever own a piston AR, it would be very ideal in my mind if I was using a suppresser or if I ever ended up with a full auto lower.
HOLLiS
Verified Military
For me as a civie, I doubt GP, GI or what ever would matter. Just like forward assist, as a civie if I have a failure to chamber, I need to stop what I a doing and fix it. Yet, for some one in the military/LE using a AR during a critical event where it fails to chamber, a forward assist is a necessity.
One aspect in the Corps, a Marine will have a clean rifle. When he is not doing anything else, a Marine will be cleaning his rifle. Gunnys will insure that happens. In that situation, having GP or GI won't matter. (my understanding).
I know accuracy can very dependent on ammo. Also how a rifle is fired has a effect. I was sighting in a new scope and using hand loads. The rifle clovered leaf each time (3) as I adjusted the scope to be on target. A month later I went to the range with a friend. This is why Murphy's Law kicks in when one brags. I told how well the rifle group. The difference, I did not bring hand loads, but some EU military surplus .308. The rifle was all over the place, grouping in excess of 6 inches. Also, I have been dealing with AR for some time (40+ years). Rifle twist is important and it's relationship to bullet weight needs to be considered.
On suppressors, one thing many other piston type firearms have is a gas adjustment. One can adjust the gas going to the piston. I think this is a good idea for both GP and GI when using a suppressor. It seem the US never really cared for that. The Brits and Ruskies have used it (Bren gun and SVT40). The M14 had a valve where one could turn of the gas to the piston (for rifle grenades).
Also it would be really great if suppressors were as available as they are in other countries and not a NFA item.
Barrel life, Many barrels do not have a tremendous life, look at the .220 Swift. Biggest effect on accuracy is not so much pitting/corrosion with in the barrel, it is the crown that is critical. Cleaning from chamber is preferred, especially with a metallic cleaning rod.
One aspect in the Corps, a Marine will have a clean rifle. When he is not doing anything else, a Marine will be cleaning his rifle. Gunnys will insure that happens. In that situation, having GP or GI won't matter. (my understanding).
I know accuracy can very dependent on ammo. Also how a rifle is fired has a effect. I was sighting in a new scope and using hand loads. The rifle clovered leaf each time (3) as I adjusted the scope to be on target. A month later I went to the range with a friend. This is why Murphy's Law kicks in when one brags. I told how well the rifle group. The difference, I did not bring hand loads, but some EU military surplus .308. The rifle was all over the place, grouping in excess of 6 inches. Also, I have been dealing with AR for some time (40+ years). Rifle twist is important and it's relationship to bullet weight needs to be considered.
On suppressors, one thing many other piston type firearms have is a gas adjustment. One can adjust the gas going to the piston. I think this is a good idea for both GP and GI when using a suppressor. It seem the US never really cared for that. The Brits and Ruskies have used it (Bren gun and SVT40). The M14 had a valve where one could turn of the gas to the piston (for rifle grenades).
Also it would be really great if suppressors were as available as they are in other countries and not a NFA item.
Barrel life, Many barrels do not have a tremendous life, look at the .220 Swift. Biggest effect on accuracy is not so much pitting/corrosion with in the barrel, it is the crown that is critical. Cleaning from chamber is preferred, especially with a metallic cleaning rod.
swordsman
Unverified
I think those are excellent groups, but I have to admit I tend to doubts. I have worked with the AR platform for roughly 15 years and have yet to see that type of accuracy at that high of a round count without a match grade barrel or the use of match grade ammo. Hints my questions about the ammo and barrel. I do not doubt you or your word, just trying to get all the data behind what you’re doing to achieve that grouping. Personally I think you have one hell of a set up and if I were you I would not change a thing until accuracy changes.
the groups from "waffen centrale" are much better then my ones, this time im banned from waffen online i'm back in there at april.06, then i try to pull pics and post them here.
a friend of me was able to shoots 5 round in a Ø19mm paster with a standart sabre defence and sellier&bellot 69grn -> http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/rifle-ammunition-detail.php?ammunition=18&product=220 now his ammount is empty and he uses an knew charge and the groups are at 2,5 inch. a lot depends only on the ammo.
an other friend uses the mr308 with self loaded ammo, he shoots like a benchrester, i search for pics when im back from work.
the groups from "waffen centrale" are much better then my ones, this time im banned from waffen online i'm back in there at april.06, then i try to pull pics and post them here.
a friend of me was able to shoots 5 round in a Ø19mm paster with a standart sabre defence and sellier&bellot 69grn -> http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/rifle-ammunition-detail.php?ammunition=18&product=220 now his ammount is empty and he uses an knew charge and the groups are at 2,5 inch. a lot depends only on the ammo.
an other friend uses the mr308 with self loaded ammo, he shoots like a benchrester, i search for pics when im back from work.
swordsman
Unverified
ok, as promised here the fotos from a german gunsmith from the first series of h&ks mr223 .
all is shoot with factory ammo, no handloads / the rifle has been new, out of the box with different flash hiders and comps!
today my impala bullets arived, i think in the next 3-4 weeks i can post pics from the 50grn brass solids and in the mid of may pics from deer hit by the bullets.
all is shoot with factory ammo, no handloads / the rifle has been new, out of the box with different flash hiders and comps!
today my impala bullets arived, i think in the next 3-4 weeks i can post pics from the 50grn brass solids and in the mid of may pics from deer hit by the bullets.
Attachments
swordsman
Unverified
here is the rifle mr308
and here the results.... (ammo is handloaded)
and here the results.... (ammo is handloaded)
swordsman
Unverified
last friday shoot my first "bock" with my h&k MR223 and a 50grs impala brass solid bullet at ~70meters.
after the bullethit the deer walks 25meters and dies under some old oaks.
after the bullethit the deer walks 25meters and dies under some old oaks.
Pistol_Pete
Verified SOF
Congratulations on your 1st buck. The species tends to be smaller in Europe but I'm sure just as tasty. I saw more wild boars in Germany than I ever did see deer. Are wild boars still a big problem in some areas of Germany?
I'm curious - how much bureaucratic red tape do you have to go through to hunt in Germany nowadays, let alone own a firearm?
swordsman
Unverified
thanks!
the "rehwild" in germany weights 20-30kilo length 1m-1.4m. not really big!
the wildboars here are a big problem, but its selfmade (sometimes). the german agroculture rises corn in endless dimensons for producing energy thruogh biogas, the farmers are angry of the wildboars, but often they are the troublestarter, endless corn fields with missing space to shoot the boars for example.
the next problem is, night vision and silencers are not legal to own and use for hunting.
and a lot of german hunters think its not ethic to hunt with this usefull stuff.
in a semiautorifle the mag only is allowed to hold 2rounds while hunting(!).
you see, a lot problems are made from goverment and the traditionel hunters.
im an huntig outlaw with my tattos, long hair and a bad black (war)rifle!
the "rehwild" in germany weights 20-30kilo length 1m-1.4m. not really big!
the wildboars here are a big problem, but its selfmade (sometimes). the german agroculture rises corn in endless dimensons for producing energy thruogh biogas, the farmers are angry of the wildboars, but often they are the troublestarter, endless corn fields with missing space to shoot the boars for example.
the next problem is, night vision and silencers are not legal to own and use for hunting.
and a lot of german hunters think its not ethic to hunt with this usefull stuff.
in a semiautorifle the mag only is allowed to hold 2rounds while hunting(!).
you see, a lot problems are made from goverment and the traditionel hunters.
im an huntig outlaw with my tattos, long hair and a bad black (war)rifle!
2 rounds in your magazine while hunting... sounds like you get some good magazine change training ;)
Especially if you're hunting boar.
Especially if you're hunting boar.
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