Which piston gun?

AssadUSMC

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OK, so I am finally going to order my rifle this weekend and I am just seeking some advice (agreement?) before I drop a couple grand. I am about 99% sure I want a piston (vs. impingement) gun.

Right now, the order will be an LWRCi M6A2 DEA version (it has some upgrades over the standard M6A2) with 14.7" barrel. Should I pop for the M6A3 instead? I don't plan on suppressing it after all, so the multi-position gas selector might be irrelevant.

I've also looked at Noveske and LMT, but Noveske doesn't have a piston gun and LMT's piston gun is like a unicorn to find. Knight's is out since our work guns are KAC SR-15s and we've had problems. I'd love to buy a 416, but they are not available in semi-auto (complete gun, not an upper).

Any advice/input/suggestions are welcome... Thanks
 
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8'Duece

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LWRC M6A2 is a self regulating gas system, as is the LMT MRP piston upper.

Both are fantastic weapons. The LMT is a bit easier to break down the op rod, but not much than the LWRC M6 series.

For civillian use GI is fine. I just liked the LWRC and the piston since I don't care for cleaning BCGs and bolts and extractors everytime I fire 100 rounds through the damn thing. Call me lazy. :D

I'm not interested in retro fit parts for GI gun into a piston gun. I also don't care for the POF stuff. Their funky looking to boot and I know of at least one op rod that broke during a carbine class with a POF gun.

Surprisingly the Ruger SR556 piston gun is one hell of a nice rifle. Cold hammer forged barrel, chrome lined Mil-Spce 41V45, Troy quad rail with Troy rail covers, 4 position chome plated gas regulator, chrome plated bolt carrier and bolt front and rear Troy flip ups, chrome plated 2 stage gas piston operating system and of course the 6 position telscoping butt stock (Mil Spec)
 
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8'Duece

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I would like to add that LWRC M6A2 DEA is only different in the hider. The DEA model comes with the Phantom and not an A2 Birdcage. They throw in a sling and a padded case with the LWRC logo. That's the only difference.

I also am confused as to the four position gas regulator on the M6A3 series. The self regulating requires no adjustments for suppressed or no suppressed or commercial loads vs tactical loads in the 6.8 SPC gun. Don't know why they insisted on a different gas regulator for the M6A3, but someone smarter than me can possibly answer that question.
 

Diamondback 2/2

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Impingement = more accurate and Piston = more reliable. I am accuracy driven and the impingement is more then reliable enough for me. Also the piston will reduce the longevity of accuracy in the barrel, where impingement causes more wear on the bolt carrier group.

My personal thoughts are that it boils down to "cool guy factor" if you run a piston you are part of the cool kids, if you run impingement you will make the cool guy feel stupid for wasting all his money. }:-)

All of the rifles you posted are GTG, and you will be more then happy with any of them. If it were me I would go with a Noveske N4 (gas impingement).
 
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8'Duece

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Impingement = more accurate and Piston = more reliable. I am accuracy driven and the impingement is more then reliable enough for me. Also the piston will reduce the longevity of accuracy in the barrel, where impingement causes more wear on the bolt carrier group.

My personal thoughts are that it boils down to "cool guy factor" if you run a piston you are part of the cool kids, if you run impingement you will make the cool guy feel stupid for wasting all his money. }:-)

All of the rifles you posted are GTG, and you will be more then happy with any of them. If it were me I would go with a Noveske N4 (gas impingement).


With the LWRC cold hammer forged and NiCor treatment you get 100% more accuracy than a Mil Spec barrel, not to mention about 10 times the service life of the Legacy gas impingement.

2 MOA @ 100 meters with my 6.8 SPC LWRC with SSA Sierra 115 grain OTM. With the SSA 77 Grain 5.56 OTM is about the same at that same distance. I'd say that beats any Mil Spec barrel in service today.
 

HOLLiS

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I am sort of with JAB on this. There is a difference between the two, but it is not as big as people would like to make it seem as big. There is some "Wow is it new and groovy" factor. Gas piston has been around for a long time. The ones already out there all have a common problem, they still need to be cleaned and the gas piston is often ignored. If you got the money, but what turns you on. Everything out there is built on a compromise. There are pros and cons to everything. The most important factor is the shooter.
 
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8'Duece

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. Also the piston will reduce the longevity of accuracy in the barrel.

This is an incorrect statement.

LWRCI™ rifles and carbines utilize cold hammer forged barrels made out of 41V45 steel alloy and treated with NiCorr™ surface conversion technology. Cold hammer forging takes an oversized barrel blank, and using high pressure rotary hammers, compacts the barrel blank over a mandrel. This forms perfect rifling devoid of tool marks. It also compacts the molecular structure of the metal making it denser and stronger. These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4.


How exactly does a piston system reduce accuracy and service life then ??
 
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7point62

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Though the thread needed some porn

lwrc_sabr_2.jpg
 

Diamondback 2/2

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With the LWRC cold hammer forged and NiCor treatment you get 100% more accuracy than a Mil Spec barrel, not to mention about 10 times the service life of the Legacy gas impingement.

2 MOA @ 100 meters with my 6.8 SPC LWRC with SSA Sierra 115 grain OTM. With the SSA 77 Grain 5.56 OTM is about the same at that same distance. I'd say that beats any Mil Spec barrel in service today.

I have consistently gotten 1MOA at 100 yards out of rack grade (Mil spec) 1/7 NATO barrels with MK262. The bigger issues with rack grade barrels are the protection of the crown (keeping Joe from gouging it up with a cleaning rod).

I have no experience with the 6.8 SPC, but I have heard of subMOA groups from LWRC M6, but I am not sure on the ammo that was used.

The main issue is not how it comes from the factory but how it holds up in use. The piston system is more reliable then gas impingement and I would never argue that is not. But the accuracy and accuracy longevity is not better with a piston system. The primary issue is the buildup of carbon in the business end of the barrel and the erosion of the gas porthole caused by the gas regulator.

This is an incorrect statement.

LWRCI™ rifles and carbines utilize cold hammer forged barrels made out of 41V45 steel alloy and treated with NiCorr™ surface conversion technology. Cold hammer forging takes an oversized barrel blank, and using high pressure rotary hammers, compacts the barrel blank over a mandrel. This forms perfect rifling devoid of tool marks. It also compacts the molecular structure of the metal making it denser and stronger. These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4.


How exactly does a piston system reduce accuracy and service life then ??

You can believe what you want buba, I tested the HK416 and we had the same problem that two of my best friends M6 carbines are having now, that the accuracy is notably diminished after around 3000 rounds. This is not something new to the gas piston world; it’s been the problem with the AK series and M1/M14 series rifles.

I am sure the LWRC barrels are better then the standard Wilson rack grades and I have no doubt that the LWRC barrel will last longer. But you are comparing two different levels of accuracy and two different gas systems. Take a LWRC barrel and put gas impingement on it and you can see the difference in the accuracy levels I am talking about.

Don’t take my word for it; ask some of the trainers out there who are testing these rifles on the civilian side. Talk to the competitive side and ask them if they are noticing less accuracy in the pistons vs the impingement. I did not make it up bro, I am just passing on the experience of my self and the people I know.

All that being said, the standard for a mil issue M4 with M855 ammo is 3MOA. The 416’s we tested all stayed with in this standard and maintain better reliability then the M4’s we tested next to them. For a room broom, I would take a gas piston over impingement. But being the accuracy driven person I am, my personal money will go with gas impingment.
 

AssadUSMC

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I considered the Noveske but it seems as if the wait time is interminable...

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bi...clpv-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=

r-lclpv-556_1d.jpg


I am likely going with a piston gun because I like the technology. AKs, FALs, etc. are renowned for their reliability. As a long-time M16/M4 user (abuser?), I've seen way to much stuff go wrong. I can't blame it all on gas impingement, but a good deal of it was because of a fouled key, bent gas tube, etc. (not always my doing). I am meticulous about maintaining my rifle, but the comfort in knowing it'll keep running without constant cleaning is good.

Keep the comments coming - you may convince me yet to change my mind!
 

Diamondback 2/2

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Something else to think about when talking piston, is the amount of different systems out there and the ability to get replacement parts. There is defiantly a corner on the market when it comes to each system. Basically means you are going to have to go through the maker for any parts vs being able to stop at any gunsmith or AR parts retailer.

I am not all down on the pistons, I think the idea is GTG but think there is still a lot to be desired. In a few years if the piston craze keeps up, I think the market will shift and some true “Mil specs” will be developed for piston systems. Once that happens you better hope the system they choose is the one you have, or you will have that much more trouble finding the right parts.

As for the issues of cost effectiveness, a gas tube is not a lot and is easy to replace. A bolt gas key is a simple fix and cheap to buy. Those are pretty much the only parts gas impingement systems you are going have trouble with (if you have trouble). With the piston you have op-rods, gas regulator, different bolt key ect. All parts are going to have to come from the factory and all parts are 3 to 4 times more then a standard GI system.

Just some food for thought…
 

pardus

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I will always go for a piston over a GI rifle.

I was brought up with pistons and they have the most important feature of a battle rifle, reliability.
If if doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger what's the point?

As for accuracy, that is a non issue for me with a battle rifle, i'm not a sniper, i'll be pulling the trigger till the prick hits the ground, then I'll be adding a few more for good measure.
Beside how much more accurate is a GI rifle really?
 

Diamondback 2/2

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I will always go for a piston over a GI rifle.

I was brought up with pistons and they have the most important feature of a battle rifle, reliability.
If if doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger what's the point?

As for accuracy, that is a non issue for me with a battle rifle, i'm not a sniper, i'll be pulling the trigger till the prick hits the ground, then I'll be adding a few more for good measure.
Beside how much more accurate is a GI rifle really?

Very good point of view, and I agree for a basic battle rifle the piston system is accurate enough. The same can be said for the reliability as well, the Piston system really only shines past 750+ rounds. It would be one hell of a day if you are shooting more then 750 rounds in your battle rifle before cleaning again. My lean towards GI is parts available and mainly accuracy, but I am a competitive fuck and want all the accuracy I can get in any firearm. Thats why I stopped shooting high power matches with a M14 and started shooting with a NM AR15.
 

lefty2

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Does it have to be 5.56? Why not 7.62 and get a M1A? Also you can get the wood stock and knock the @#$% out of someone if that be the case:)
 

pardus

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Very good point of view, and I agree for a basic battle rifle the piston system is accurate enough. The same can be said for the reliability as well, the Piston system really only shines past 750+ rounds. It would be one hell of a day if you are shooting more then 750 rounds in your battle rifle before cleaning again. My lean towards GI is parts available and mainly accuracy, but I am a competitive fuck and want all the accuracy I can get in any firearm. Thats why I stopped shooting high power matches with a M14 and started shooting with a NM AR15.

Back at you with the good points mate.
 
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