Really struggling with what to think of the NSA/phone story

"Any analyst at any time can target anyone," he said. "I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authority to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal e-mail."

Bullshit......and YES he is a traitor.
 
1984? Really I think this guy just confirmed what most people thought was happening anyway.

"Any analyst at any time can target anyone," he said. "I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authority to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal e-mail."

While I question whether or not this statement is accurate based on this guy's willingness to sell himself and a top secret program out, if this is the case then that's incredibly unnerving. I would hope there would be some kind of checks and balances with something like this.

Edit: Just saw Kraut's post. So he is full of shit. Hang him.
 
Sounds like the dude had a clearance and bounced around contract to contract; I'd like to know more background on the dude. ie. What was his actual positions? He could have been contracted to swap out hard drives or even sweep floors. He had access and is a dick, so he stole classified documents. There should be a team at the door of his hotel by now and that fucker should be wearing a hood on a one way trip to the cage he'll spend the rest of his life in. Just my 2c.
 
Has anyone considered the possibility that his releasing the data is a diversion?

A guy (who looks like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo) with SCI access suddenly bolts for China?

I think he knew the jig was up, so he bolted. Revealing the classified program takes the public pressure off of him.
 
He's going to "ask for asylum from any countries that believe in free speech and oppose the victimization of global privacy." and then flies to Hong Kong.

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck....
 
Stolen documents include:
• A sealed court order forcing Verizon to turn over millions of telephone call records;
• A presentation on PRISM, a government system to collect communications from Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Apple;
• And documents related to "Boundless Informant," a system to track, catalog and map the source of all the data that NSA brings in worldwide.
In a video accompanying the Guardian story, Snowden said the NSA "targets the communications of everyone" — including American citizens — and routinely gathers vast amounts of data on everyday communications.
"So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a foreign government, or someone that they suspect of terrorism, they're collecting your communications to do so," he said.

So yeah, it happened, is happening, and President Obama already came out and explained no need to worry because it's all legit and only being done for our security.

Interesting article describes concerns that the UK has worked with the US to bypass existing laws on domestic spying there as well:
http://www.businessinsider.com/bush...s-obama-expanded-surveillance-programs-2013-6

"If you are a law-abiding citizen of this country going about your business and your personal life you have nothing to fear – nothing to fear about the British state or intelligence agencies listening to the contents of your phone calls or anything like that. Indeed you will never be aware of all the things those agencies are doing to stop your identity being stolen and to stop a terrorist blowing you up tomorrow."
 
Has anyone considered the possibility that his releasing the data is a diversion?

A guy (who looks like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo) with SCI access suddenly bolts for China?

I think he knew the jig was up, so he bolted. Revealing the classified program takes the public pressure off of him.

If he had been turned and bolting; it would be very poor trade-craft for his controller to leave him in the wind like that. Beyond that Very Possible.

I'm smacking my cynicism down to wonder if his real motivations were of conscience or something else.
 
Where is the line between national security and invasion of privacy?

SCOTUS has already ruled that there is NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY when going through a third party to establish communications ( Smith v Maryland, 442 US 735 (1979). The Court views electronic communications (including email) the same as old school voice telephone calls (Martha, get me "Pleasant 4574!") .

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=442&invol=735

Bottom line: if you dial a number or send an email and it goes through another entity for transmission or billing, there is ZERO expectation of privacy of data that is has been collected as per the press reports as well as POTUS press conference. Just as Kraut783, this fuck face is full of shit as far as his ability to "wiretap" anyone. The traitor was a sys admin guy and not an analyst therefore he couldn't have done what he claimed PERIOD.

As least in his interview he didn't say "Pakistan is not our enemy". I hope Obama launches an armed Pred on his ass. :thumbsup:
 
The guy worked less than 3 months for Booz and started leaking a lot of information. I obviously don't know him but my gut feeling is he is a little like Manning. Probably a little immature and he was driven by a desire to become famous.

Lindy you had a great post.

I have certainly enjoyed the spectacle in Washington watching so many Democrats and Republican's defending the programs and others trying trying to run like cockroaches when the lights were turned on trying to distance themselves. Still others won't even acknowledge they knew about the program.

It's far from a government only programs. If the privacy laws in the US allows private entities to collect terabytes of data each day on American's that they have no business collecting someone else will use the data. If grocery stores are allowed to collect data on your shopping habits and the Onstar on your car can track your daily commute recording everything from fluid levels to the routes you traveled and how fast you drove. What privacy can people expect?

This is a congressional problem and not a Presidential problem IMHO. While I think everyone's shock at these realizations are pretty naive, point the finger at the people who wrote the law giving these powers to any administration.
 
SCOTUS has already ruled that there is NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY when going through a third party to establish communications ( Smith v Maryland, 442 US 735 (1979). The Court views electronic communications (including email) the same as old school voice telephone calls (Martha, get me "Pleasant 4574!") .

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=442&invol=735

Bottom line: if you dial a number or send an email and it goes through another entity for transmission or billing, there is ZERO expectation of privacy of data that is has been collected as per the press reports as well as POTUS press conference. Just as Kraut783, this fuck face is full of shit as far as his ability to "wiretap" anyone. The traitor was a sys admin guy and not an analyst therefore he couldn't have done what he claimed PERIOD.

As least in his interview he didn't say "Pakistan is not our enemy". I hope Obama launches an armed Pred on his ass. :thumbsup:
There's a substantial difference between a legitimate, isolated police action involving a warrant on an individual suspect, and then applying that SCOTUS ruling to everyone on the planet. The SCOTUS ruling is regarding law enforcement, and a handheld recording device used to intercept comms on an individual suspect. It is doubtful that in 1979, the SCOTUS could have ever even dreamed that we'd have the capability of digitally archiving almost every communication on the planet thanks to exponential increases in computing power and yottabytes of cheap digital storage. It's also not likely that they could have forseen taking a ruling about an isolated police / law enforcement action, and allowing it to then be stretched and distorted to unfathomable degrees, so that everyone who communicates in any way now has no "reasonable expectation of privacy". Almost ALL communication today goes through a third party, therefore ALL communications on the planet is subject to government eavesdropping, and this is Constitutional now? LOL.

I posted on this before, and it's the reason I believe the population must resist small infringements every step of the way, because each tiny infringement and erosion of privacy forms the body of justification for what constitutes, or eventually will constitute "reasonable expectations" for this or that. First we allow breaches in little things 10 years ago, and today we wake up to news that Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Gmail, and every other swinging dick has a pipeline to the NSA where everything is archived for future terror investigations (or IRS fun...).

As for no expectation of privacy in email and phone calls, that's utterly absurd. You have a password on your email don't you? Do you post your private cell phone number or address on Craigslist? Probably not, because you want the content of your email and the use of your personal phone to remain private. That's a "reasonable expectation" in common man's language, and yet another disconnect between big government, and where the rest of us live and work.
 
There's a substantial difference between a legitimate, isolated police action involving a warrant on an individual suspect, and then applying that SCOTUS ruling to everyone on the planet. The SCOTUS ruling is regarding law enforcement, and a handheld recording device used to intercept comms on an individual suspect. It is doubtful that in 1979, the SCOTUS could have ever even dreamed that we'd have the capability of digitally archiving almost every communication on the planet thanks to exponential increases in computing power and yottabytes of cheap digital storage. It's also not likely that they could have forseen taking a ruling about an isolated police / law enforcement action, and allowing it to then be stretched and distorted to unfathomable degrees, so that everyone who communicates in any way now has no "reasonable expectation of privacy". Almost ALL communication today goes through a third party, therefore ALL communications on the planet is subject to government eavesdropping, and this is Constitutional now? LOL.

I posted on this before, and it's the reason I believe the population must resist small infringements every step of the way, because each tiny infringement and erosion of privacy forms the body of justification for what constitutes, or eventually will constitute "reasonable expectations" for this or that. First we allow breaches in little things 10 years ago, and today we wake up to news that Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Gmail, and every other swinging dick has a pipeline to the NSA where everything is archived for future terror investigations (or IRS fun...).

As for no expectation of privacy in email and phone calls, that's utterly absurd. You have a password on your email don't you? Do you post your private cell phone number or address on Craigslist? Probably not, because you want the content of your email and the use of your personal phone to remain private. That's a "reasonable expectation" in common man's language, and yet another disconnect between big government, and where the rest of us live and work.

Firstly, read the ruling and the opinion that clearly states that when a caller dials a number and that call is routed to a third party (Verizon, ATT, Sprint, etc) switching center, there is no expectation of privacy in the calling party's number, dialed number, date of call, and time of call. I believe that Obama called this information "metadata". Secondly, we're talking data; NOT CONTENT (e.g. evesdropping, wiretapping, etc) which the Court has REPEATEDLY upheld that the 4th Amendment most definitely applies and therefore a warrant is required for collection and processing.

From the Smith v Maryland SCOTUS ruling footnotes:

"A pen register is a mechanical device that records the numbers dialed on a telephone by monitoring the electrical impulses caused when the dial on the telephone is released. It does not overhear oral communications and does not indicate whether calls are actually completed." United States v. New York Tel. Co., 434 U.S. 159, 161 n. 1 (1977). A pen register is "usually installed at a central telephone facility [and] records on a paper tape all numbers dialed from [the] line" to which it is attached. United States v. Giordano, 416 U.S. 505, 549 n. 1 (1974) (opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part). See also United States v. New York Tel. Co., 434 U.S., at 162 ."

The purpose of a pen register in Smith v Maryland is to detect fraud, abuse, harassment, etc. In my opinion, that's no different that how spammers collect DATA in address harvesting and dictionary attacks, both illegal as outlined in CAN SPAM act of 2003.

Where does press reporting say that "everything" has been collected and stored for future retrieval and analysis?

If this program is so outrageous, then WE really have problems. The program is "run" by the Executive branch (IC agencies), provisions established by the Judicial branch (FISC), and overseen by the Legislative branch (SSCI and HPSCI).
 
Firstly, read the ruling and the opinion that clearly states that when a caller dials a number and that call is routed to a third party (Verizon, ATT, Sprint, etc) switching center, there is no expectation of privacy in the calling party's number, dialed number, date of call, and time of call. I believe that Obama called this information "metadata". Secondly, we're talking data; NOT CONTENT (e.g. evesdropping, wiretapping, etc) which the Court has REPEATEDLY upheld that the 4th Amendment most definitely applies and therefore a warrant is required for collection and processing.

From the Smith v Maryland SCOTUS ruling footnotes:

"A pen register is a mechanical device that records the numbers dialed on a telephone by monitoring the electrical impulses caused when the dial on the telephone is released. It does not overhear oral communications and does not indicate whether calls are actually completed." United States v. New York Tel. Co., 434 U.S. 159, 161 n. 1 (1977). A pen register is "usually installed at a central telephone facility [and] records on a paper tape all numbers dialed from [the] line" to which it is attached. United States v. Giordano, 416 U.S. 505, 549 n. 1 (1974) (opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part). See also United States v. New York Tel. Co., 434 U.S., at 162 ."

The purpose of a pen register in Smith v Maryland is to detect fraud, abuse, harassment, etc. In my opinion, that's no different that how spammers collect DATA in address harvesting and dictionary attacks, both illegal as outlined in CAN SPAM act of 2003.

Where does press reporting say that "everything" has been collected and stored for future retrieval and analysis?

If this program is so outrageous, then WE really have problems. The program is "run" by the Executive branch (IC agencies), provisions established by the Judicial branch (FISC), and overseen by the Legislative branch (SSCI and HPSCI).
Just FYI I was referring to Katz vs. US, a 1967 case that provided much of the precedent and legal grounds for Smith vs. Maryland. In Katz vs. US, comms were directly intercepted, not just stats.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=389&invol=347


...
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...1c9-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html?hpid=z2

Big Brother Isn't Watching You

(You may have to register (free)) to read the entire article which also cites Smith V MD)

The article closes with this sentence:

"And when those programs are exposed by leaks, it is not whistleblowing — it’s a felony."

Just FYI I was referring to Katz vs. US, a 1967 case that provided much of the precedent and legal grounds for Smith vs. Maryland. In Katz vs. US, comms were directly intercepted, not just stats.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=389&invol=347


...

Correct and I'm in complete agreement especially when in the Katz case, the FBI was specifically going after conversations hence the recording devices. However, according to press reports (Snowden, DNI, POTUS, etc), this latest "scandal" was devoted strictly to third party released data and not private person-to-person communications. Yes?

I am learning so much in this thread it's not even funny.

If you would have BEAR'd to 35P, you'd have the keys to the castle...or probably just been given a copy of the latest Washington Post and received correspondence course credit. :blkeye:
 
If you would have BEAR'd to 35P, you'd have the keys to the castle...or probably just been given a copy of the latest Washington Post and received correspondence course credit.

haha, I haven't given up on it, just a delay. My days in a uniform are not over yet - still have the itch.
 
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