Retention and Recruitment Crisis

I am neutral on the get-out-of-jail-free card for PRT failure. I mean, it's a one-time deal and not for the perpetual fat-bodies, so I am not sure of the totality of the numbers this will affect. I could see a policy on 2x failures as well.

What I DO like from the article is the removal of high-year tenure. If they are good sailors and do good work, why not let them stay in and work, especially if they are in perpetually overmanned rates that promote slowly. I also don't hate the idea of having potential recruits with lower AFQT scores joining.

Navy eradicates fitness test failures in campaign to improve retention
 
Putting this here, Navy related, but undesignated seaman is an awful place to be:

Undesignated 'Dogs of the Navy' Who Scrape Rust and Paint Ships Are Getting Help Finding New Jobs

The BUDS Duds, yeah, I don't know how to take high-performers and put them into meaningful jobs. Hard to see them go from BUDS to chipping paint and serving chow. From this aspect it seemed better in the old days where they had regular Navy rates then went to BUDS. If they failed at least they went to the fleet in that job.
 
Lots of good discussion in this thread. A few observations:

Teufel is doing what we expect officers of any branch to do: support and defend the Constitution, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion. It's literally in our oath.

Are the kinds of things we're talking about in the last couple of posts unconstitutional? No, I don't think they are. The President is the commander in chief and he (probably soon to be "she," topic for another thread) gets to make those kinds of decisions.

The only other time that we get to flatly reject (or ignore, or undermine) orders is if they are illegal. Are the policies we're talking about illegal? I think they're fucking stupid and are demonstrably harming the military, but illegal? I don't think I can make that call quite yet.

Sometimes we forget that the politicians have the right to be wrong. They get to make these kinds of calls. So if it's not unconstitutional, and it's not illegal... we get to STFU and do it, no matter how stupid or distasteful it is. By our Constitution, the military is an arm of the Executive Branch. Everything we do is inherently political. We don't have to like it--and I don't--but that's the way it is.

So, if you're an officer and you don't like something, you can do a couple of things. You can file a complaint to IG. You can write your member of Congress. You can write an op-ed under your real name for a national-level media outlet. If you are concerned about backlash, you can publish under a pseudonym and send it to... I don't know, a moderately-influential blog called The Havok Journal. Or something.

Or you can work to get into a position where you might actually be able to have an effect on these types of polices--and hate to break it all of us, but that's probably not in uniform.

Or, you can do what I did and GTFO.

What you can't do in good conscience as an officer, despite GEN Milley's example, is undermine the will of the American people as constituted by the directives of the President of the United States by not carrying out the orders and policies of the Executive Branch. You especially can't do it in public. Again, it's in our oath.

I don't know what Teufel's personal feelings are on the matters under discussion, because it's not import to me as his friend. In the few times we ever got to meet up face to face, I infinitely prefer to talk to him about how much the Naval Academy sucks, or about what he brought over to cook for dinner. What I do know is what I'm seeing now is exactly what I would expect from a professional US military officer: support for the lawful and constitutional polices enacted by the people lawfully and constitutionally enabled to enact them.

I'm retired now so I'm ready and willing to have the "this is fucking stupid" conversations, because it is. It **is** fucking stupid. But we probably need to leave anyone still in the mix out of the convo.
 
Marauder06 said:
you can work to get into a position where you might actually be able to have an effect on these types of polices--and hate to break it all of us, but that's probably not in uniform.

Or, you can do what I did and GTFO.
Click to expand...


Yes Sir! My superiors told me " if you don't like something, stick around, get promoted, and change it."

Did what I could, but it got to a point that I was part of the problem and no longer part of the solution (too old school) so I GTFO. Its part of the process.

I commend those who can roll with it and hang in there. Its not easy to watch your beloved (insert branch here) change right before your eyes.
 
Devildoc said:
Putting this here, Navy related, but undesignated seaman is an awful place to be:

Undesignated 'Dogs of the Navy' Who Scrape Rust and Paint Ships Are Getting Help Finding New Jobs

The BUDS Duds, yeah, I don't know how to take high-performers and put them into meaningful jobs. Hard to see them go from BUDS to chipping paint and serving chow. From this aspect it seemed better in the old days where they had regular Navy rates then went to BUDS. If they failed at least they went to the fleet in that job.
Click to expand...

I almost thought this was a repost...but it's almost a completely new article from the one I posted from the NYT. It's very simple, we do the same thing with 18 X-Ray, except they have a parent MOS of 11B.

The Navy used to make all Sailors who enlisted to be SEALs to choose a rate. At one point they went to that 'A' School and then to pre-BUDS. But the Navy didn't like that failure rate...but why does that matter? They should be sent to 'A' School to learn a rate so they have an job to fall back on. Otherwise they're just like all of the rest low ASVAB scoring pukes that need to learn to chip and earn their way into a rate. Wow...that was exhausting talking squid.
 
ThunderHorse said:
I almost thought this was a repost...but it's almost a completely new article from the one I posted from the NYT. It's very simple, we do the same thing with 18 X-Ray, except they have a parent MOS of 11B.

The Navy used to make all Sailors who enlisted to be SEALs to choose a rate. At one point they went to that 'A' School and then to pre-BUDS. But the Navy didn't like that failure rate...but why does that matter? They should be sent to 'A' School to learn a rate so they have an job to fall back on. Otherwise they're just like all of the rest low ASVAB scoring pukes that need to learn to chip and earn their way into a rate. Wow...that was exhausting talking squid.
Click to expand...

Which is one of the reasons there's no direct route to any of our SOF roles. They've reduced the requirements, so you can attempt selection after Battle School or whichever trade school you completed. But chances are slim. They still want mature individuals, not just personally but within the service.
 
ThunderHorse said:
I almost thought this was a repost...but it's almost a completely new article from the one I posted from the NYT. It's very simple, we do the same thing with 18 X-Ray, except they have a parent MOS of 11B.

The Navy used to make all Sailors who enlisted to be SEALs to choose a rate. At one point they went to that 'A' School and then to pre-BUDS. But the Navy didn't like that failure rate...but why does that matter? They should be sent to 'A' School to learn a rate so they have an job to fall back on. Otherwise they're just like all of the rest low ASVAB scoring pukes that need to learn to chip and earn their way into a rate. Wow...that was exhausting talking squid.
Click to expand...

But they DO have 11B. 18X invariably go to the 82nd, which is good for them and the army for a variety of reasons. Non-rate sailors are adrift in the sea of navy manpower.

The two biggest issues with the 'old' NSW rate-before-BUDS is a) that NEC/rate is one less billet for that job in the Navy, and b) sailors weren't getting promoted as well in NSW because they were taking rate-specific tests for promotion. Hard for an electronic technician to stay competent when they don't do anything in that rate. NSW was having to put sailors on TDY to go back to A school refresher courses.

I don't think any sailor should join the navy and be undesignated. You should be guaranteed a rate, or at least a selection. If you don't score well enough on the AFQB/ASVAB, then don't join. Or, Big Navy, have rate schools change their standards to meet the lowering standards of those tests so that rates become available. Bosun Mate ain't a hard school, and senior enlisted BMs are pretty well respected; they are the REAL sailors.

As for the BUDS Duds, the contract should absolutely have built-in rates so they don't go undesignated: if you wash out, these are the options depending on needs of the navy; if you ring out, these are the options depending on the needs of the navy (with these being the least desirable of the two). Almost every rate on every ship and base can throw up bodies for revolving work details for painting and chipping and chow service.
 
Devildoc said:
But they DO have 11B. 18X invariably go to the 82nd, which is good for them and the army for a variety of reasons. Non-rate sailors are adrift in the sea of navy manpower.

The two biggest issues with the 'old' NSW rate-before-BUDS is a) that NEC/rate is one less billet for that job in the Navy, and b) sailors weren't getting promoted as well in NSW because they were taking rate-specific tests for promotion. Hard for an electronic technician to stay competent when they don't do anything in that rate. NSW was having to put sailors on TDY to go back to A school refresher courses.

I don't think any sailor should join the navy and be undesignated. You should be guaranteed a rate, or at least a selection. If you don't score well enough on the AFQB/ASVAB, then don't join. Or, Big Navy, have rate schools change their standards to meet the lowering standards of those tests so that rates become available. Bosun Mate ain't a hard school, and senior enlisted BMs are pretty well respected; they are the REAL sailors.

As for the BUDS Duds, the contract should absolutely have built-in rates so they don't go undesignated: if you wash out, these are the options depending on needs of the navy; if you ring out, these are the options depending on the needs of the navy (with these being the least desirable of the two). Almost every rate on every ship and base can throw up bodies for revolving work details for painting and chipping and chow service.
Click to expand...
AF is just as bad. One line of thought with a ( if I fail) job is that it makes quiting easier.
The money folks argue against another Tech School shot, ignoring the fact that a plane ticket is cheaper then recruiting a new body 4 to 6 years from now.
 
Devildoc said:
But they DO have 11B. 18X invariably go to the 82nd, which is good for them and the army for a variety of reasons. Non-rate sailors are adrift in the sea of navy manpower.

The two biggest issues with the 'old' NSW rate-before-BUDS is a) that NEC/rate is one less billet for that job in the Navy, and b) sailors weren't getting promoted as well in NSW because they were taking rate-specific tests for promotion. Hard for an electronic technician to stay competent when they don't do anything in that rate. NSW was having to put sailors on TDY to go back to A school refresher courses.

I don't think any sailor should join the navy and be undesignated. You should be guaranteed a rate, or at least a selection. If you don't score well enough on the AFQB/ASVAB, then don't join. Or, Big Navy, have rate schools change their standards to meet the lowering standards of those tests so that rates become available. Bosun Mate ain't a hard school, and senior enlisted BMs are pretty well respected; they are the REAL sailors.

As for the BUDS Duds, the contract should absolutely have built-in rates so they don't go undesignated: if you wash out, these are the options depending on needs of the navy; if you ring out, these are the options depending on the needs of the navy (with these being the least desirable of the two). Almost every rate on every ship and base can throw up bodies for revolving work details for painting and chipping and chow service.
Click to expand...

For a long time 18X’s were being involuntarily reclassified. So many weren’t staying 11B’s.

Also the 82nd is certainly not guaranteed. The guys from my time that dropped ended up at Ft.Lewis, Korea, some in Hawaii, and some even in Italy.
 
TLDR20 said:
For a long time 18X’s were being involuntarily reclassified. So many weren’t staying 11B’s.

Also the 82nd is certainly not guaranteed. The guys from my time that dropped ended up at Ft.Lewis, Korea, some in Hawaii, and some even in Italy.
Click to expand...

So, the dudes that had jump school were still being sent to non jump status units?
 
Muppet said:
So, the dudes that had jump school were still being sent to non jump status units?
Click to expand...

We push 30,000 people a year through Airborne School...so most will never get near a jump status unit.

Devildoc said:
But they DO have 11B. 18X invariably go to the 82nd, which is good for them and the army for a variety of reasons. Non-rate sailors are adrift in the sea of navy manpower.

The two biggest issues with the 'old' NSW rate-before-BUDS is a) that NEC/rate is one less billet for that job in the Navy, and b) sailors weren't getting promoted as well in NSW because they were taking rate-specific tests for promotion. Hard for an electronic technician to stay competent when they don't do anything in that rate. NSW was having to put sailors on TDY to go back to A school refresher courses.

I don't think any sailor should join the navy and be undesignated. You should be guaranteed a rate, or at least a selection. If you don't score well enough on the AFQB/ASVAB, then don't join. Or, Big Navy, have rate schools change their standards to meet the lowering standards of those tests so that rates become available. Bosun Mate ain't a hard school, and senior enlisted BMs are pretty well respected; they are the REAL sailors.

As for the BUDS Duds, the contract should absolutely have built-in rates so they don't go undesignated: if you wash out, these are the options depending on needs of the navy; if you ring out, these are the options depending on the needs of the navy (with these being the least desirable of the two). Almost every rate on every ship and base can throw up bodies for revolving work details for painting and chipping and chow service.
Click to expand...

Sure, but that was also the pre SEAL MOS. So ideally, the Sailors who completed SQT become SEALs and the rest return to their MOS for assignment.
 
Muppet said:
Ah, no clue that was a thing. I always thought, jump school went to jump units.
Click to expand...
I think that's probably true on the enlisted side, but it's definitely not true for Os. And it's especially not true for cadets. I don't think it's a stretch to state that most people who go to Airborne School as cadets never end up on jump status. For me it was 11 years between the time I went to Airborne School in 1991 and got my five jumps, to my sixth jump (5th Group).
 

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