School/Mass shootings are now part of our culture.

[DC]

This is a mental heath issue period.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Then its an American problem to be debated and solved by Americans.

?

@DC - before I jump to conclusions, please explain what you mean by that statement.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

I've gotta be honest but from this side of the pond, it seems that school shootings very much are accepted by society at large, given the reactions to these events. I mean, what will actually happen as a result of this particular massacre? People will say it's a tragedy, politicians will offer "thoughts and prayers", the same politicians will then do fuck all about it, the news will eventually move on... Give it a few months, maybe a year or two for the next massacre to happen and the whole cycle will happen again.

The complete inaction of politicians following events like these, would indicate it's very much accepted.

I think that the mass media does a very good job at sensationalizing events like these with the intent to monetize human suffering. By being fast and loose with their reporting, the MSM does a good job of sensationalizing isolated incidents and painting said country in a bad light.

Lets not forget these media outlets like to push for certain social agendas in the name of 'preventing another tragedy' by playing to the emotions of an audience. MSM companies play on the emotions of an audience by introducing 'red herring fallacies' into their news pieces and subsequent reporting in order to stretch out the monetization of a tragedy even further.

TLDR: The media lies, things are actually pretty great here in the US.

 

[DC]

Conversation went to US having more instances of gun violence as compared to the rest of the world. I have listened to other opinions at naseum from expats from “gun control “ countries about how we as a society are barbaric because of our 2nd amendment. That taking them all away, giving in to leftist socialist beliefs make thier solution better. I believe that we, as Americans, must solve this as a nation. I believe its mental heath and culturally driven. That is my point.

 

[J.S.]

Sebastian Junger makes some really thought-compelling arguments about suicide and mental health that can, in my opinion, be expanded to the issue of school shootings.

His argument is that the common bonds in America are breaking down because of how fast our society is changing. We no longer have to struggle and scrape in order to survive, so the bonds that tie us to others are disappearing. In Junger's book Tribe, he includes an anecdote from a Serbian woman who lived through the bombardment of Belgrade in the 90s. The woman confesses that she misses the bombing because everyone was so much closer to one another. She even says she would rather live in Belgrade then than in Belgrade now! They all had a common goal of survival and so reverted to the base level of community that we are evolutionarily programmed for.

That same issue of a lack of community can be seen in American gun violence and suicide. Suicide rates dropped immensely following Pearl Harbor because citizens found common purpose and felt needed. Modern society makes it incredibly easy for people to feel unnecessary. That same feeling of uselessness may drive people to commit such terrible crimes against members of their own community.

I'm not proposing any solutions here and I'm not sure I can find any, but I personally agree with Junger's perspective on the issue.

 

[256]

Yeah, all correct. But you can’t make parents parent their kids. You can find and identify behavior all day long, what will we do about it? The kid in FL was identified. The something we have to do has to be cost effective, school is a nonprofit organization. I’m all for taking some professional shooters and putting them in my kids school, that would be awesome. Too bad the 20 year teacher is making 95,000 a year and makes hiring that professional impossible. Don’t forget, most school districts have multiple buildings to protect so now you have to hire 5 of those expensive professionals. Or we can hire the “armed” Brinks truck driver. You know, the the fat ass with the untucked short sleeved collared shirt and his no retention .44 revolver dangling all over the place in his granpapie’s leather holster. Don’t forget about the mustard stains on that shirt.

Use the teachers that are in place. In Ohio there are volunteer Range Officers that certify teachers to carry. Listen, you guys are all right and there is certainly risk and liability when arming teachers. There’s also risk in putting kids on school buses, but we mitigate those risks. We can mitigate risk and liability with solid training programs. When people show up with guns we call people with guns. Let’s have the people with guns already be there.

You’re also right, it is a mental health issue. What’s the solution tho, lock them up? I’m certain there’s something the Constitution that doesn’t allow that. So as much as it is a mental heath issue, I really think only identifing it as a mental health issue does nothing. It all comes back to money, we have to protect our kids the most cost effective way.

Sebastian Junger makes some really thought-compelling arguments about suicide and mental health that can, in my opinion, be expanded to the issue of school shootings.

His argument is that the common bonds in America are breaking down because of how fast our society is changing. We no longer have to struggle and scrape in order to survive, so the bonds that tie us to others are disappearing. In Junger's book Tribe, he includes an anecdote from a Serbian woman who lived through the bombardment of Belgrade in the 90s. The woman confesses that she misses the bombing because everyone was so much closer to one another. She even says she would rather live in Belgrade then than in Belgrade now! They all had a common goal of survival and so reverted to the base level of community that we are evolutionarily programmed for.

That same issue of a lack of community can be seen in American gun violence and suicide. Suicide rates dropped immensely following Pearl Harbor because citizens found common purpose and felt needed. Modern society makes it incredibly easy for people to feel unnecessary. That same feeling of uselessness may drive people to commit such terrible crimes against members of their own community.

I'm not proposing any solutions here and I'm not sure I can find any, but I personally agree with Junger's perspective on the issue.

All that is really neat, but he’s just identifying a problem. There’s no problem solving going on.

 

[DC]

@256
First part made me laugh.

I wouldn’t trust a teacher in my state(Ca) with a squirt gun. No worries they are anti gun and hide behind the Gun Free sign. I know other states are capable.

 

[J.S.]

All that is really neat, but he’s just identifying a problem. There’s no problem solving going on.

I believe Junger proposed potential solutions in the latter portion of his book but I don’t have a copy on hand and I can’t remember it well enough to try and speak for him.

 

[256]

@256
First part made me laugh.

I wouldn’t trust a teacher in my state(Ca) with a squirt gun. No worries they are anti gun and hide behind the Gun Free sign. I know other states are capable.

The really cool part about having conversations like this with like minded individuals is, noone has made fun of each other’s moms..so we got that going for us..

 

[SaintKP]

Post

I agree with you to a point, but all it's doing is applying a Flintstones bandage to a fractured femur, you say here

All that is really neat, but he’s just identifying a problem. There’s no problem solving going on.

Ok if the problem is clearly identified, why can't we work to solve the problem? I'm on board with you on having trained personal other than the local rent-a-cop. But all that's doing is applying a temporary relief to the surface of it all, when the real problem lies beneath. Sure you may be walking around with a cane and a sick looking cast, but you still have a fractured femur that's only getting worse.

As stated by other members so far, for actual sustainable and measurable change to take place there needs to be a culture change in America in regards to how we treat Mental Health. I've always been a pull yourself up and dust yourself off type, but not everyone is like that, and some handle it horribly and turn to violence like what just happened in FL.

I don't have the answers to what needs to change or how to change, I just know that it's only putting on the bandage with the usual level of discussion circulated around in politics and MSM.

 

[DC]

I believe Junger proposed potential solutions in the latter portion of his book but I don’t have a copy on hand and I can’t remember it well enough to try and speak for him.

I envy you. I can’t finish a book for shit. Must be 20 laying around here with bookmarks halfway thru.
Sebas has seen done some shit. His insight sells. Someday I would like to have a convo with him.

I agree with you to a point, but all it's doing is applying a Flintstones bandage to a fractured femur, you say here



Ok if the problem is clearly identified, why can't we work to solve the problem? I'm on board with you on having trained personal other than the local rent-a-cop. But all that's doing is applying a temporary relief to the surface of it all, when the real problem lies beneath. Sure you may be walking around with a cane and a sick looking cast, but you still have a fractured femur that's only getting worse.

As stated by other members so far, for actual sustainable and measurable change to take place there needs to be a culture change in America in regards to how we treat Mental Health. I've always been a pull yourself up and dust yourself off type, but not everyone is like that, and some handle it horribly and turn to violence like what just happened in FL.

I don't have the answers to what needs to change or how to change, I just know that it's only putting on the bandage with the usual level of discussion circulated around in politics and MSM.

This would be a question for the mental professional.

 

[256]

I agree with you to a point, but all it's doing is applying a Flintstones bandage to a fractured femur, you say here



Ok if the problem is clearly identified, why can't we work to solve the problem? I'm on board with you on having trained personal other than the local rent-a-cop. But all that's doing is applying a temporary relief to the surface of it all, when the real problem lies beneath. Sure you may be walking around with a cane and a sick looking cast, but you still have a fractured femur that's only getting worse.

As stated by other members so far, for actual sustainable and measurable change to take place there needs to be a culture change in America in regards to how we treat Mental Health. I've always been a pull yourself up and dust yourself off type, but not everyone is like that, and some handle it horribly and turn to violence like what just happened in FL.

I don't have the answers to what needs to change or how to change, I just know that it's only putting on the bandage with the usual level of discussion circulated around in politics and MSM.

Sure, I can understand that. So today I worked as the School Resource Officer. All the full time Policeman in my department do it one day a week. I called my Chief and explained a half-assed laid out a plan to get some of the teachers armed. He said he was all for it and would speak to the school board. I know what’s going to happen, denied. If anything changes I’ll update this thread, but don’t expect anything...

That is the only solution I can come up with. IDing and complaining about issues is the easy thing, solutions are hard..

 

[SaintKP]

That is the only solution I can come up with. IDing and complaining about issues is the easy thing, solutions are hard..

I agree with you, if solutions were easy the world wouldn't have any problems and life would be boring. I just know that it needs to be a dual approach, we need guns on campus as well as a system in the US to effectively address and work in mental health. One to try and prevent terrorist attacks in the name of an ideology, and the other to address the root cause of a lot of troubled people in this country.

Thanks for what you do by the way, and who knows just maybe the plan might get passed. Stranger things have happened for sure.

 

[DC]

Looks like shooter was on FBI list a year ago. Made comments on social media suggesting the act he carried out. Also purchased the weapon legally.

 

[Florida173]

 

[CDG]

IMO... much of what we are seeing here can be tracked back to lack of discipline, lack of moral/ethical code, lack of personal responsibility and the "I'm special" mindset. Community has become cliques, identification has become less village and more gang (LGBQT, hispano-female, afro-activist, sis-gendered alien, etc...) thus creating frictions unknown in the past. We, as a society do not teach coping skills, but, rather blaming skills... victimization skills, and entitlement skills. How does a young person learn to deal with adversity if he/she is removed from adversity by attitude - I don't have to lift myself, I'm a victim, so instead of finding a workable solution, I'll grab dad's gun and kill my classmates - that'll get me on the news, I'll be famous.

Our society has become a hide, run, blame culture; where it used to be a confront and overcome culture. The false open liberal attitudes that actually squash the exchange of ideas and reduce strength by adversity, replacing it with weakness by victimization is eroding the moral and ethical fiber of all.

again, just MOO.

100% agree. It's really easy to blame guns, the 2A, etc. It's difficult to actually deal with a kid who is going down a bad path. Parents try and minimize, explain away, equivocate, etc.

Also, the FBI needs to figure out a better system than just ignoring people until something happens.

 

[Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆]

The level of security at the super bowl should be three fold at our schools. It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation. Gun free zones do not work.

 

[DocIllinois]

The level of security at the super bowl should be three fold at our schools. It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation. Gun free zones do not work.

So when schools become hard targets, what is to stop a shooter from simply moving on to the next soft one full of kids?

 

[Dame]

...A grandmother in Washington state turned in her grandson for a planned shooting. Student accused of plotting Everett school shooting could be charged today
This case may be interesting in terms of how proactive LE can be expected to be.

This ^^ right here. The Florida shooter's mother called the cops. The FBI knew. The authorities did nothing.
Two similar cases. Two completely different endings. Why? Because someone paid attention when the family asked for help from authorities.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

The level of security at the super bowl should be three fold at our schools.

whom and how do you propose this being paid for? Are you truly convinced that this would even deter a motivated shooter?

It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation.

Come on man, did you really type that?

Gun free zones do not work.

This we agree on 100%

So when schools become hard targets, what is to stop a shooter from simply moving on to the next soft one full of kids?

HARD Agree