In the late 80's/ early 90's we openly displayed (gun racks in trucks) rifles and shotguns in our high school parking lot. No one even threatened another with a gun, bat, or even a knife. Yeah, society's changed. We created this environment.
School/Mass shootings are now part of our culture.
- Thread starter Ooh-Rah
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In the late 80's/ early 90's we openly displayed (gun racks in trucks) rifles and shotguns in our high school parking lot. No one even threatened another with a gun, bat, or even a knife. Yeah, society's changed. We created this environment.
Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆
Verified Military
Sorry I didn't catch this before. You stated that "no other western country has gun attacks". The gun didn't attack anyone. The human behind the trigger did the attack. The media always calls it gun violence. When a Muslim clacks off a bomb it's not called bomb violence. When a truck is rammed through a crowed it's not called truck violence. When someone is stabbed it's not called knife violence.
It's the objective of the left and the media in this country to vilify an inatimate object for their own agenda. The second ammendent gives teeth to our construction. If we lose it what keeps the political class from removing the first ammendent or any other right we as Americans a blessed to have? I have owned guns for so long I can't tell you when I got my first one. I have never, ever had the notion of harming anyone that was not a threat to me.
It's not the second ammendent that's the issue here, guns are not the issue. It's the lack of family structure, and discipline in the home. Parents are scared to put foot to ass these days. When I was in school we were paddled and my mother signed that form with much glee. I feared my teachers, I feared me parents. I feared not only the ass whooping I feared their dissapointment in me should I not live up to their standards. Kids do not fear those things today.
I'll never forget, I was about thirteen, my mother was on my ass about my room not being squared away. I stood there for about five minutes listening to her go on about my roll in the house and chores are my contribution to the home since I didn't pay any bills. When she finished and proceeded to walk out I said, under my breath, "fuck you". Well... she heard it. She turned around and at that moment I thought she was going to kill me. To my dismay she very calmly said " I'm calling your father" I wish she had killed me! They say the anticipation of death is worse than death itself and they are right. Needles to say I never, NEVER disrespected my mother again. Not even in my mind.
Our western society has de-balled parents. Taken away their right to raise their children as they see fit. Capital punishment is now frowned upon and pain is a powerful teacher. Mind you I'm not condoning child abuse. I was never abused but I had my ass handed to me and I learned from it.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
Disagree, and I think the post is misleading.
Assuming, arguendo, your 1% is correct it isn't really relevant, and I think Knoll and Annas missed the point. The vast majority of murders (I don't care about suicides in this context) in this country are bad guy vs bad guy. I suppose you can argue criminal conduct and murder require some degree of mental illness, but I don't know that there is data to support that. However, we aren't talking about run of the mill criminal homicide. We're discussing rapid mass murders, and that's a different animal.
If we separate out terrorist attacks like San Bernardino, mental illness is most definitely a factor. To what degree it plays a role is something that requires further study, as is the question of what degree of culpability the medical community should bear for its prescribing practices relative to certain medications in certain populations.
A number of active shooters had been prescribed antidepressants or other psychiatric medications prior to their attacks. I'd have to do the math but I lean toward the total number being statistically significant. Many drugs in the antidepressant class have side effects so severe as to merit boxed warnings about such things as suicidal ideation and the like. We are prescribing drugs whose mechanism of action we don't understand to fix problems whose etiologies are debatable (is depression a result of chemical imbalances involving GABA and/or other substances or a function of a neuroplasticity deficit, both, or neither?). Further, we are throwing drugs like Adderal at people at rates that were unheard of years ago because the relevant diagnoses were made much more judiciously in the past (and perhaps more accurately). It seems illogical to conclude that these actions wouldn't have cascading effects.
I'm not saying we should not attempt to medicate those with psychiatric disorders. However, there is often an increased risk of paradoxical effects when giving psychoactive drugs to certain populations, such as young people.
While I would agree that most mental health patients are not violent or dangerous, there are certainly some that are. It is these people who seem to be disproportionately represented in the ranks of active shooters/killers.
A serious talk about mental health? There's nothing to talk about. There's a mental health issue in the US (I guess), it's been said 500 million times(I am not calling you stupid(!!!!), but doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is stupid). If we can't come up with a solution for the mental health issue it's time to move past it, find another way to deal with it. We call Police Officers to the scene of these shootings for what reason, really? Because they have guns. To be completely honest, most cops can't shoot for shit. Look at the qualifications (below) for Ohio Police Officers to carry a gun. It's pretty weak, yet that's who we call. I know anyone of us could teach a person to pass this qual, come on now.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Semi-Auto-Pistol-Qualification.pdf
DocIllinois
Verified Military
The post being referred to could be misleading, yes, which is what produced my subsequent one.
Mental health patients are disproportionately represented among active shooters/killers - what is out there to genuinely support this suggestion? I ask only because I really am curious, because the degree to which mental illness plays a role has been studied.
For anyone who would like a cogent presentation of what would certainly be my future points in this discussion, I would strongly urge a reading of the following recent work written by SME leaders in the fields which apply to this subject.
Gun Violence and Mental Illness
360,000,000 Americans and one crazy mother fucker and you want to strip everyone else of their rights.
My guns are all homicidal I have to keep a close watch over them or they'll sprout legs and run down the street shooting everyone.
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Well in fairness, it has been more than one crazy motherfucker over the years. I also never said anything about stripping everyone of their rights.
That sick cunt was able to legally buy a rifle when he still wasn't old enough to legally consume alcohol... I'm sorry but that makes zero sense to me.
DocIllinois
Verified Military
As an added rub to this dialogue, I wouldn't be surprised if kids and their parents filed suit soon against Congress for failing to do anything meaningful in this matter while knowing that inaction will continue to place children in schools at grave risk.
There is precedent for this type of action in the suit brought by 21 youth plaintiffs against the last administration for failing to take real action to mitigate climate change, knowing that this would imperil their right to an inhabitable planet.
The student reaction to Parkland has been very aggressive and a justified rage is now creeping in. This includes addressing our POTUS directly, to include one student of that school openly calling him a "fucking piece of shit" for offering only prayer and condolences as a response.
A suit may be the best chance of escalating the gun control debate to move beyond something more than the cycle of shooting/ pointless thoughts and prayers and petitions/ lawmakers who ultimately do nothing, IMO.
There is precedent for this type of action in the suit brought by 21 youth plaintiffs against the last administration for failing to take real action to mitigate climate change, knowing that this would imperil their right to an inhabitable planet.
The student reaction to Parkland has been very aggressive and a justified rage is now creeping in. This includes addressing our POTUS directly, to include one student of that school openly calling him a "fucking piece of shit" for offering only prayer and condolences as a response.
A suit may be the best chance of escalating the gun control debate to move beyond something more than the cycle of shooting/ pointless thoughts and prayers and petitions/ lawmakers who ultimately do nothing, IMO.
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There is a mental switch that flips in the minds of the shooters to do these mass shootings. The triggering mechanisms are the mystery. Anything written really hasn’t discovered the cause because it’s still happening. Hell the FBI can’t even pass on warning signs a year ago. I think it’s apathy on the part of politicians because there is zero money in it.
It’s a generational issue by adults leaving thier parental responsibilities to social media and a lost cultural morality. Kids learn from the “street”. It is our fault. We need to fix it. This I believe is the switch. These papers written before Parkland are out dated. We keep listening to this mumbo jumbo and yet it still happens. We have to find a new approach.
I agree the process needs to be updated but to suggest”gun control” in the sense removing guns is the example of other socialist countries(Europe)works is in its self another form of stupidity. Sorry they have many forms of gun crimes that match thier population numbers as we do.
It’s a form of mental illness. How it’s treated maybe we love and cherish our kids. Go to recitals and baseball games. Turn off the electronics and sit down to a family meal. Whatever we do ruck up and get busy. Stop believing guns are the cause. People really are period.
It’s a generational issue by adults leaving thier parental responsibilities to social media and a lost cultural morality. Kids learn from the “street”. It is our fault. We need to fix it. This I believe is the switch. These papers written before Parkland are out dated. We keep listening to this mumbo jumbo and yet it still happens. We have to find a new approach.
I agree the process needs to be updated but to suggest”gun control” in the sense removing guns is the example of other socialist countries(Europe)works is in its self another form of stupidity. Sorry they have many forms of gun crimes that match thier population numbers as we do.
It’s a form of mental illness. How it’s treated maybe we love and cherish our kids. Go to recitals and baseball games. Turn off the electronics and sit down to a family meal. Whatever we do ruck up and get busy. Stop believing guns are the cause. People really are period.
DocIllinois
Verified Military
Assuming the opinions, and the studies supporting them, of the following SMEs in mental health, public policy, and public health published in 2016 are "outdated," this means there is a more substantial amount of similar evidence since released which supports conclusions to the contrary. The majority of their professional bios are searchable for all to see.
Renee Binder, M.D.
Emma C. McGinty, Ph.D., M.S.
Daniel W. Webster, Sc.D., M.P.H.
Matthew Miller, M.D., M.P.H., Sc.D.
Catherine Barber, M.P.A.
Deborah Azrael, Ph.D.
Carl C. Bell, M.D., D.L.F.A.P.A.
James L. Knoll, IV, M.D.
George D. Annas, M.D., M.P.H.
Peter Ash, M.D.
Marilyn Price, M.D., C.M.
Patricia R. Recupero, J.D., M.D.
Donna M. Norris, M.D.
Eric Y. Drogin, J.D., Ph.D.
Carol Spaderna, LL.B. (Hons.)
Robert L. Trestman, Ph.D., M.D.
Fred R. Volkmar, M.D.
Daniel C. Murrie, Ph.D
Debra A. Pinals, M.D.
Josh Horwitz, J.D.
Anna Grilley, M.S.P.H.
Kelly Ward, J.D.
Donna Vanderpool, M.B.A., J.D.
Shannon Frattaroli, Ph.D., M.P.H.
Shani A.L. Buggs, M.P.H
I am making yet another appeal for this material.
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They are all wrong in the sense what they perceive is scientific. This is a cultural issue. Just as the heading of this thread suggests. Cultural. Believe the big brains Doc. They are like the FBI and gov to me....useless. In God we trust,pledge of allegiance,respect for the flag,respect for others,etc. teach it on a broad scale and then write your paper...
Proves my point. Parents taught these kids that this response is ok. Like it’s someone else’s fault. Like the politicians are at fault or guns or LE...seriously. Blame game always works.
Proves my point. Parents taught these kids that this response is ok. Like it’s someone else’s fault. Like the politicians are at fault or guns or LE...seriously. Blame game always works.
DocIllinois
Verified Military
I understand your point, brother, and agree that child raising needs to tighten up.
Our current social climate is one of the areas of study, legal, and policy work for many of these folks, though, and they have reached the conclusion that it is a mistaken belief that people with mental illness are responsible for most of the gun violence in the U.S., to include mass/ school shootings.
They also advocate evidence-based interventions focusing on assessments and indicators of dangerousness, with or without indications of mental illness. I think that's a good place to start, IMHO.
The thing about these kids that throw out these threats, it happens literally every day. Not even close to one percent of the threats pan out into action. So what threats do we take seriously and which ones do we not look into? I’ll bet my house that kid spoke to a mental health professional more than once through the school. So it comes back to which threats do we take seriously? Celebraties, movie stars, sports players all get death threats, I bet 99% of them aren’t investigated. It’s impossible to look into each one of these.
Again, pointing fingers at LE and FBI isn’t going to help the next 17 kids. Identifying the the issue only helps if there's a solution. There's no solution to the mental health problem.
Again, pointing fingers at LE and FBI isn’t going to help the next 17 kids. Identifying the the issue only helps if there's a solution. There's no solution to the mental health problem.
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I hear ya bro. I think lumping in mass shootings with gun violence as a whole is the mistake. It’s should be it’s own category and studied accordingly.
I don’t point fingers at local LE. Just the Feeble Band of Idiots that run the FBI.
There is a solution. Teach your children well. The worse I ever saw in school was a fight after. Chirping then fist ta cuffs. If I EVER got in trouble(if caught
) I got my ass BEAT. But my youth is a story in its self...
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Devildoc
Verified Military
I am curious as to how many of those (mass) shooters in the past were on psych meds or who had something in their med records re: psych eval.
@Poccington , yes, 18 can get you a rifle, and get you into the military to use one against someone else legally. But you can't buy a beer, you can't rent a car, and you can't get a hotel room. It is very screwed up.
@Poccington , yes, 18 can get you a rifle, and get you into the military to use one against someone else legally. But you can't buy a beer, you can't rent a car, and you can't get a hotel room. It is very screwed up.
You seem to be saying your beliefs are the correct normative cultural practices, which I see very little evidence for (besides the one in every culture like "respect others"), and thank god. I don't see any evidence that your force fed nationalism will stop school shootings in a nation as diverse as ours.
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Force fed? Laughable actually. I can express my beliefs like you can. What you do with it is up to you. I grew up in a much different time. In fact Reagan was the gov of Ca. I have seen it go from great to shit. I guess that’s experience that leads me to feel the way I do. The diverse isolationist mindset to me is another cultural issue derived from poor behavior of others and accepting it instead of challenging it. It’s a dialogue required to solve problems. This one hits home because kids and grandkids in school.
So I read the report, it's heavily misleading IMHO. They are addressing "server" dignosed mental disorders and not mental health as a whole. Not sure if that some sort of a save face attempt for the psychiatric community or what, but I would call it fluff peice.
Antidepressants Are a Prescription for Mass Shootings | Citizens Commission on Human Rights, CCHR
So the question I have, is if all these people are not suffering from mental health problems, why is the psychiatric community prescribing them medications such as antidepressants?
Either we mentally healthy people being doped with psycho active drug's, or we have mentally ill people being doped with psycho active drug's and allowed to run around in public. Either or, it's a fucking problem that needs to be addressed.
Antidepressants Are a Prescription for Mass Shootings | Citizens Commission on Human Rights, CCHR
So the question I have, is if all these people are not suffering from mental health problems, why is the psychiatric community prescribing them medications such as antidepressants?
Either we mentally healthy people being doped with psycho active drug's, or we have mentally ill people being doped with psycho active drug's and allowed to run around in public. Either or, it's a fucking problem that needs to be addressed.
DocIllinois
Verified Military
Should the goal of the authors of that entry have been to mislead, they wouldn't have been contributors to the kind of work in which that chapter is found.
Comparing the literature we have both offered, I think that our respective definitions of evidence in a scientific subject are so very different that advancement of dialogue would be scarcely possible.
