Some fast rope pics of ladders

[DA SWO]

RIP Cmdr Oswald - http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/For-Navy-SEAL-who-died-in-El-Salvador-family-1095007.php

That's a shitty story man.. I do agree that training should start at a lower height and move its way up gradually so guys can begin to see differences from 20 feet to 40 feet, and so on, and make the necessary adjustments. Going from 20 feet to 90 feet with no training in between just might be one of the dumbest and most dangerous thing I've ever heard.

"Our" standard is/was 15-20ft hollywood, then 30-40ft kit/weapon, then 60-80ft kit/weapon/ruck/breaching tools"

Wouldn't it make sense if it was 15-20 full kit, then 30-40 full kit, then 60-70 hollywood followed by full kit, then a full kit at 90 ft.

Hell.. what's the point of a 90 ft fast rope. What situation calls for it? Wasn't Mogadishu like 60-70?

I've never done a 90 foot rope, nor could I imagine doing one with a ruck sack. I would throw my ruck sack out the helo before I roped with it to be honest. I don't believe in incredibly dangerous training for that 1 in 200,000 chance we'd do it. Which in my eyes : a 90 foot fast rope with full gear and ruck is exactly that.

I semi-burned in from 90 feet. Rope slipped away from my feet and I squeezed for dear life.
I have 2 bulging disks in my lower back as a result; two weeks later a Controller doing the same exercise burned in from 22 feet.

I have back pain, he is paralysed from chest down.

I really think crawl, walk, jog, run is the best method.

 

[amlove21]

For a unit executing serious training for a real world rope and/or training/qualifying a FRM, this 8ft practice/cert FR is BS - IMHO.

I agree. I think you need to do a 90 footer a couple times and realize a 90 is most certainley NOT a 30. Hell, sometimes what the pilot tells you is going to be 30 in the brief looks a LOT like 50 during the rope. That stuff happens in the real world.

Is there a middle ground on the "safety/realistic training" side of the discussion? Sure. But the most complex problem you have seen should NOT be presented during a real world mission. You should have already practiced it.

Thanks for the inputs, RB.

Also, what I think is more important than rope length is doing it at night.

I'll agree with this...

I'm confused. You're argument with your example of a SEAL dying basically reinforces doing elevators at 8 ft(usually 15-20ft). I still think if you can do 20ft you can do 60ft and injuring just gets extrapolated at 60ft. I mean by your words we should be doing mass tac jumps at 600-800ft too. I think what should have been taken away from that incident is you don't do rehearsals at a ridiculous height. It's also redundant and time consuming with limited assets(helicopters). The process of the FRM are the same whether you're at 20ft or 60ft. If you're really concerned about guys fucking up on a 60ft, you can go to the tower. Typical FR cert is tower then elevators then you go real-world over at Bragg or whatever. I'll concede making sure to do elevators with all your equipment is important. I've never done a 90ft'er personally, but I'm pretty sure nothing would change other than needing thicker gloves..

Not so much this. Using your own reasoning, I just kicked you off of any team that might have to do more than a 20 foot fast rope. Part of that training (however dangerous) is for the commanders and others in leadership to be able to stand up, when asked, and say "Yes, we can do that mission, and it will be a success, and we will not kill our men trying to make it happen."

I HAVE done a 90, with a ruck, and a weapon. From a helicopter, at night. Not a tower. So have the guys on my team. That's not to beat my chest, or to think I am better than you/those that haven't, because I don't. When asked, beyond a shadow of a doubt- "Can you men do this mission, no matter what you're faced with?" I can say stand up to The Man and say, "Yes. Send my team."

If you or your men have never done it, you don't know what's going to happen, and simulation only gets you so much. That's not a shot, just my opinion. I think you need to do that stuff. As safely as possible.

 

[dknob]

Combat rope. Or beat your face.

 

[AKkeith]

I'm confused. You're argument with your example of a SEAL dying basically reinforces doing elevators at 8 ft(usually 15-20ft). I still think if you can do 20ft you can do 60ft and injuring just gets extrapolated at 60ft. I mean by your words we should be doing mass tac jumps at 600-800ft too. I think what should have been taken away from that incident is you don't do rehearsals at a ridiculous height. It's also redundant and time consuming with limited assets(helicopters). The process of the FRM are the same whether you're at 20ft or 60ft. If you're really concerned about guys fucking up on a 60ft, you can go to the tower. Typical FR cert is tower then elevators then you go real-world over at Bragg or whatever. I'll concede making sure to do elevators with all your equipment is important. I've never done a 90ft'er personally, but I'm pretty sure nothing would change other than needing thicker gloves. Guys not having the right gloves on a real-world mission is an issue.

Im confused on your logic on how doing less means you can do more?
If you can do more than yes you can do less.

 

[Brian1/75]

Im confused on your logic on how doing less means you can do more?
If you can do more than yes you can do less.

Because shit doesn't magically happen when you add length to the rope. All of the risk is reaching out to the rope and utilizing proper technique whether it's 20 ft or 60ft. Once you have your feet and hands on the damn thing weighted down with your maximum combat weight at night nothing else matters as long as you have the proper gloves and the proper technique. Unless guys are freezing at the door because of the added height it's a non-issue. And honestly I'm not worried about it when we have guys going out a jump door at 1200ft AGL. What variables change because you added 40ft of rope? The amount of heat generated by friction. That's it. You don't accelerate down the rope faster. The technique doesn't change. You're not suddenly having to rope blind.

 

[goon175]

I'm not gonna lie, I would be pissing my pants if I had to do a 90 ft rope from a 47 (especially if you were the first one out), lots of room for little errors to become fatal since you are reaching outside of the bird for the rope. If it was a 60 where you can get both your hands and feet on the rope before leaving the aircraft, then that would be no big deal.

 

[Brian1/75]

I'm not gonna lie, I would be pissing my pants if I had to do a 90 ft rope from a 47 (especially if you were the first one out), lots of room for little errors to become fatal since you are reaching outside of the bird for the rope. If it was a 60 where you can get both your hands and feet on the rope before leaving the aircraft, then that would be no big deal.

Well, I mean I'm not going to lie doing 60ft scared the shit out of me. Especially off the tower. There were no beams to hold on if I recall right and the rope didn't get pulled in towards the ramp, so you had to make a damn dedicated reach. After that going out an actual 47 or definitely a 60 was easy-peesy. Which reminds me, I'd argue doing elevators on a more 'difficult' airframe is more important than rope length.

 

[Rabid Badger]

Which reminds me, I'd argue doing elevators on a more 'difficult' airframe is more important than rope length.

Hmmm, if all you got out of my post was rope length, well, :-" so be it.

If 60ft scared the shit out of you at night on a tower, 1/75- , where does your experience or advice hail from?

Let's see - I taught FR at TAAS / FTCKY from '87-'90. FR was actually classified at that time....yup...~classified~. Firemen can slide down a pole but a rope is classified, go figure.

Seen a lot, done a lot, but don't agree with much at all in your posts. I'm allowed after 25 years of roping.

 

[Brian1/75]

Hmmm, if all you got out of my post was rope length, well, :-" so be it.

If 60ft scared the shit out of you at night on a tower, 1/75- , where does your experience or advice hail from?

Let's see - I taught FR at TAAS / FTCKY from '87-'90. FR was actually classified at that time....yup...~classified~. Firemen can slide down a pole but a rope is classified, go figure.

Seen a lot, done a lot, but don't agree with much at all in your posts. I'm allowed after 25 years of roping.

I wasn't just arguing with you. The whole thing devolved into you got to rope 90 ft or you're not doing it right and roping less is pointless. You're right I guess I don't have the experience you have, but in my mind after combat equipment, visibility, and airframe, rope length is the least important with the most risk. I've roped 60ft out of a bird as well. I just find a tower scarier for the reasons I mentioned. And yeah I have a fear of heights when falling can mean my death. I just overcome it. I apologize if you look down on this.

 

[AKkeith]

Because shit doesn't magically happen when you add length to the rope. All of the risk is reaching out to the rope and utilizing proper technique whether it's 20 ft or 60ft. Once you have your feet and hands on the damn thing weighted down with your maximum combat weight at night nothing else matters as long as you have the proper gloves and the proper technique. Unless guys are freezing at the door because of the added height it's a non-issue. And honestly I'm not worried about it when we have guys going out a jump door at 1200ft AGL. What variables change because you added 40ft of rope? The amount of heat generated by friction. That's it. You don't accelerate down the rope faster. The technique doesn't change. You're not suddenly having to rope blind.

Rotorwash adds and you entirely miss out on stacking which is a much need skill with fast roping. Guys need to practice keeping and maintaining speed down the rope so when you are stacking and have the rope loaded with guys the bottom or middle guy doesn't start squeezing too hard and slow down and have everyone run down into him or guy up top start loosening up because hes heating up and run into the guy below him. Then landing from fast roping if you fall better start rolling quick or you have a rope full of guys landing on you.
If you never practice stacking you can't magically think you can stack when you need to or things will go wrong and people will get hurt.

 

[Brian1/75]

Rotorwash adds and you entirely miss out on stacking which is a much need skill with fast roping. Guys need to practice keeping and maintaining speed down the rope so when you are stacking and have the rope loaded with guys the bottom or middle guy doesn't start squeezing too hard and slow down and have everyone run down into him or guy up top start loosening up because hes heating up and run into the guy below him. Then landing from fast roping if you fall better start rolling quick or you have a rope full of guys landing on you.
If you never practice stacking you can't magically think you can stack when you need to or things will go wrong and people will get hurt.

They do teach you how to adjust your speed as a technique. I also have to wonder the relevance of stacking pertaining to 90ft over 60ft since some people were so assured if you haven't done 90ft you can't say you can do it. The 75th has been doing towers then low-level elevators and then 60ft+ ropes onto target for a long time. They've also probably got more combat ropes than the SF Regiment or the Marine Corps. You can argue against my experience, but you can't argue against the experience of the institution. It still doesn't explain your original argument that their was no practical reason to rope at such a low level whether training or real world as you originally argued.

And that is incredibly close to the ground to fast rope....So Fast roping from 8ft is almost always impractical.

 

[goon175]

FR was actually classified at that time....yup...~classified~. Firemen can slide down a pole but a rope is classified, go figure.

On a side note, it is very interesting what was considered OPSEC at one time, but isn't anymore. I can see why FRIES would be a classified infil method at that time though.

 

[goon175]

They've also probably got more combat ropes than the SF Regiment or the Marine Corps.

Let's not get into a pissing match. We can debate training methodology for FRIES without getting into a "who's dick is bigger" contest. I understand what you are trying to get at, but a statement like that will devolve the conversation quickly. Not calling you out brother, just lookin' out for the good of the thread!

 

[dknob]

Although we probably do have the most combat ropes :)

Combat rope check.

Push em out. Down... up!... down.. up!

 

[AKkeith]

I still think there are usually better methods to insert than fast roping at 8ft but its all situation dictates. And its only an opinion we don't have to agree

 

[Brian1/75]

I was just trying to demonstrate the 75th might know what it's talking about pertaining to what's practical real-world or what training methods work despite someone's thumbs down to an entire Battalion.

 

[Rabid Badger]

I was just trying to demonstrate the 75th might know what it's talking about pertaining to what's practical real-world or what training methods work despite someone's thumbs down to an entire Battalion.

You seem to attempt to give us the perfect training environment and FRM's for the entire Ranger Regiment with that last post.....or am I just reading into your posts?

and as goon said.......no-one is negating or giving the "thumbs down" to the experience of any group, battalion, or regiment. I can say with certainty that the Ranger Regiment does not train at 8ft to qualify their FRM's or their meat-eaters. Go back and re-read. I/no-one ever said you had to go to altitude to be proficient, only that practice makes perfect...most of the time. You state that " the 75th might know what it's talking about pertaining to what's practical real-world", yet you negate what many of the 75th here on SS are saying to you. Check the profiles brother.

Reasons for 60-90:
1. HVI rollup Urban op, 3-4 story buildings GLE - FRS.
2. Mountain side A/C crash body/crypto recovery (mountains are 60 degree slope)
3. Disaster relief SPIES for casualties with FRS insertion for recovery

take your pic as to why you need to practice from 80 instead of 8, and adjust kit/weight as necessary. You do not want to be a casualty attempting to rescue a casualty or roll-up a bad guy.

I'm done here. Train as you fight. Good luck. RS-15-89.

 

[Brian1/75]

I feel like we're arguing about nothing because apparently nobody is saying you have to go to altitude to be proficient and I never said their was no reason to go to 60-90 or that Regiment never trains from that altitude. I just think it's pointless and dangerous to do elevators from their. That is what this entire thread has been about: elevators at altitude.

 

[Brian1/75]

And I use the wrong there twice.

 

[Marauder06]

And I use the wrong there twice.

:) Brian, submit your Ranger School grad cert through the "vetting" tab, or have one of the SOF veterans here vouch for you, and we'll get you switched on to Verified SOF. In addition to having a cool green tag, you can edit your posts.