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[goon175]

OPTEMPO has little to do with it, if anything it keeps people in longer. If you go to www.armyranger.com, a lot of those member signatures will say : "1/75 92-94", "3/75 88 - 89".

Also, back in those days, the Regiment strictly adhered to Abrams Charter...so guys had to leave, they didn't have a choice in the matter. Where as, today you can stay until you fuck up bad enough to get kicked out, or elect to leave.

It's just the nature of the beast (lifestyle), that wears people out.

I agree completely, it's the reason I am where I am right now, and I'm sure many others as well.

One advantage SF has over the 75th, is that when guys get tired, they have waaaay more instructor and LNO billets available. In the 75th, you either have to leave the Regiment, or compete for one of the highly competitive instructor slots at the ROC. Those are some interesting stats on how other countries conduct business.

 

[Brian1/75]

I don't know. All the SF guys seem to talk about SWCS tours as if they are a burden. Speaking of the Australian Army, their SOF guys get paid a hell of a lot better. I've also notice all the military forces such as the Brits don't seem to care nearly as much about haircuts, if some dude wants to cuff his sleeves and stupid tedious safety classes nearly as much as ours. To me that's the biggest driving force in guys wanting to get out...tedium in stuff that doesn't matter. It was never the deployments or 12 mile runs or whatever that drove me nuts, it was the stupid crap in between. Having to get in uniform so we could stare at each other in uniform and do nothing, but wait to get off and get out of uniform and many of the other things CSMs and 1SGs seem to value will just never really make sense to me. That and many guys join to just 'been there, done that.' Nothing wrong with that, but once you've done the deed there's not much reason to keep doing it. Doing an airfield seizure for the 5th time can start to become old hat. Some of our guys pop smoke over to SF or even more drastic moves like AFSOC lacking experience or ability to make the jump to a SMU in hopes the grass will be greener, but I think they mostly find it's the same. Even the SMUs aren't golden palaces. They have their own complaints about stupid shit.

 

[dknob]

When Regiment was incredibly awesome - When CSM Birch ran shit.

 

[Tropicana98]

OPTEMPO has little to do with it, if anything it keeps people in longer. If you go to www.armyranger.com, a lot of those member signatures will say : "1/75 92-94", "3/75 88 - 89".

Yeah I'm a member over there too and indeed it is rare to see anything above 4-6 years in the sig lines. As far as the rest since I have zero ability to speak on it I'll just say thanks for the post a lot of good shit in there and bow out for now and let you guys get back to discussing.

 

[goon175]

When CSM Birch ran shit.

I have heard nothing but good things about him, wish I could have served under him.

 

[CDG]

CAG selection.. is like 5%-7%. And the majority of candidates who try out are some squared away hooahs from the 75th and SF. It is ridiculously stupid hard to get into that unit. And even then, guys get dropped from the follow on OTC like its nobody's business. So it's not in anyway just "the next step" in an Army soldier's SOF career. Not at all. BASICALLY, what I am trying to say is that 75th and SF who want to continue doing cool shit and are tired of their own careers... they have NO PLACE to go! Most guys in the Rangers and SF look at CAG as one of those almost unattainable goals. So because they don't have anywhere else to go, they get out. If we had some kind of Army unit in between the world of CAG and SF/75th. Then more people would go there and the US Army would retain awesome soldiers. But we don't, and we never will.
.

Really enoyed your post, thanks for taking the time to explain all that. As far as CAG Selection goes, what seems to be the difficulty for guys getting in? Is it physical standards, technical standards (marksmanship etc.), or they just don't 'fit in'?

What would be your ideal of a go-between unit?

 

[dknob]

Really enoyed your post, thanks for taking the time to explain all that. As far as CAG Selection goes, what seems to be the difficulty for guys getting in? Is it physical standards, technical standards (marksmanship etc.), or they just don't 'fit in'?

What would be your ideal of a go-between unit?

I can't go to in depth on selection. But it's the physical standards - they are ridiculous. I consider myself a good rucker - but I can't fathom ever coming close to the standards required to pass.

It's not like other courses where it's simply: "DON't QUIT!" and you may make it in. There, if you don't complete the standard then you aren't going anywhere.

As for technical standards, those are tested after selection.

 

[dknob]

What would be your ideal of a go-between unit?

No clue!

 

[CDG]

I can't go to in depth on selection. But it's the physical standards - they are ridiculous. I consider myself a good rucker - but I can't fathom ever coming close to the standards required to pass.

It's not like other courses where it's simply: "DON't QUIT!" and you may make it in. There, if you don't complete the standard then you aren't going anywhere.

As for technical standards, those are tested after selection.

Got it. Definitely was not trying to get details, just an overall idea of why it was so difficult to get in. I threw in the technical comment because you mentioned that large number of guys got dropped from OTC afterwards.

 

[Brian1/75]

I'm actually curious why more of our guys don't figure out a way to get those CS jobs. The requirements weren't nearly as hard and they still went through OTC and freefall.

 

[dknob]

I'm actually curious why more of our guys don't figure out a way to get those CS jobs. The requirements weren't nearly as hard and they still went through OTC and freefall.

If you mean combat support - there's not many who would be qualified. I think just commo and medics.

 

[AWP]

I'm actually curious why more of our guys don't figure out a way to get those CS jobs. The requirements weren't nearly as hard and they still went through OTC and freefall.

If you're talking about combat support for a SMU, I don't know how much of that specific element should be in the open, though I do agree with your premise.

 

[tigerstr]

The truth is being in the Regiment is great, and the missions CAN be cool sometimes. But they get redundant. VERY redundant. Hell I'm sure guys in SF get tired of doing FID and JCETs. So both sides tend to get out because frankly they get bored. The problem with the US Special Operations Community.. is the HUGEEEEE gap between SF/75th and the SMU world. In terms of making the "transition". I mean it is freaking huge. It is not a "just the next step" by any means. Other units around the world.. and I don't mean to stir the hornet's nest here or cause strife - but they don't have that huge gap between them that ours do. The gap between SASR and the Commando Regiments, is not (in my opinion) as big as the gap between SF/75th and CAG. To put it in a numbers perspective - SASR has 3 line squadrons which I assume have a minimum of 50 guys each. So 150 total. The 2nd Commando Regiment, is a battalion sized unit with 4 line companies. Probably another 650 guys. The Australian Army has like 30,000 active dudes. That means that 2.1 percent of those guys are in 2nd CDO, and .5 percent are in the SASR. So anywhere from 2.5 to 3 % of the Australian Army are special ops door kickers. Not a bad statistic. And I also read that 15-20% of candidates are accepted into the SASR, that is roughly the same percentage as the guys who end up in the UK SAS.

CAG selection.. is like 5%-7%. And the majority of candidates who try out are some squared away hooahs from the 75th and SF. It is ridiculously stupid hard to get into that unit. And even then, guys get dropped from the follow on OTC like its nobody's business. So it's not in anyway just "the next step" in an Army soldier's SOF career. Not at all. BASICALLY, what I am trying to say is that 75th and SF who want to continue doing cool shit and are tired of their own careers... they have NO PLACE to go! Most guys in the Rangers and SF look at CAG as one of those almost unattainable goals. So because they don't have anywhere else to go, they get out. If we had some kind of Army unit in between the world of CAG and SF/75th. Then more people would go there and the US Army would retain awesome soldiers. But we don't, and we never will.

*** to give a comparison in the numbers between Australian Army SOF and American Army SOF:
The US Army has 560,000 Active Duty guys. .9 percent are Long tabbers, and .4 percent are 75th.
.02 percent are in CAG. Do you see the discrepancy here in ratio? The actual quantity of troops in the Army doesn't matter. It's about the ratio.

Very interesting post and I understand where you are coming from, but your ratios seem a bit flawed.

If just 5-7% of people make selection for CAG, (1 in 14 or 20) and you have 0,9% of the big Army in SF plus 0.4% in RGR Regiment (1,3% total), then I don’t see how 0,2% of the Army is in CAG , as this is a 1/6.5 ratio of CAG population to SF/RGR population.

Anyway, IF it was so, it would be higher than the SASR/ Commando ratio in the Australian Army, (about 1/4), but not that much higher.

On the other hand, don’t you think that some sub units of SF and RGR Regiment (as an example I would mention CIFs in SF), are in a way somewhere in between the two worlds? (I imagine CIFs are still around).

I am not trying to refute your point, just discussing it, so that I get your perspective.

For an outsider looking in, particularly SF seems to have a wealth of diversified training courses/ specialty areas that can be attained during a career, for someone that got tired of doing same-same.

 

[Brian1/75]

CIF is still around, but I wouldn't call it in between worlds. There's 18x's fresh out of the Q that find their way over there. We also have assignments in HHC that allow for some diversification. A lot of times it seemed a refuge for guys with personality clashes with their platoon though. Once again, not an in between world.

 

[dknob]

Very interesting post and I understand where you are coming from, but your ratios seem a bit flawed.

If just 5-7% of people make selection for CAG, (1 in 14 or 20) and you have 0,9% of the big Army in SF plus 0.4% in RGR Regiment (1,3% total), then I don’t see how 0,2% of the Army is in CAG , as this is a 1/6.5 ratio of CAG population to SF/RGR population.

Anyway, IF it was so, it would be higher than the SASR/ Commando ratio in the Australian Army, (about 1/4), but not that much higher.

On the other hand, don’t you think that some sub units of SF and RGR Regiment (as an example I would mention CIFs in SF), are in a way somewhere in between the two worlds? (I imagine CIFs are still around).

I am not trying to refute your point, just discussing it, so that I get your perspective.

For an outsider looking in, particularly SF seems to have a wealth of diversified training courses/ specialty areas that can be attained during a career, for someone that got tired of doing same-same.

I wrote .02% , not 0.2 ;)

 

[dknob]

And to answer your question, I refer you to Brian. His answer is what I would have given. There are different careers WITHIN the 75th/SF world. But they are not the "in-between" that I'm trying to characterize.

 

[goon175]

I think just commo and medics.

Others as well, even for 11B's, but I digress to Freefalling...no need to talk about it out here.

We also have assignments in HHC that allow for some diversification.

Great for getting a different skill set, but you eventually have to return to take a squad or platoon if you want to keep moving up. So, like Dknob said, not an in-between

 

[tigerstr]

All this math I did... for nothing Thats what you get when you are trying to read, post and work at the same time...

Thanks Brian and dknob, for your answers. I see what you mean.

Difficult to figure out what this "in between" could be though.

On the other hand its actually good to know that even in the era of expansion and sometimes dropping standards ( as discussed in another thread) some units kept having exremely hard ones.

 

[dknob]

All this math I did... for nothing Thats what you get when you are trying to read, post and work at the same time...

Thanks Brian and dknob, for your answers. I see what you mean.

Difficult to figure out what this "in between" could be though.

On the other hand its actually good to know that even in the era of expansion and sometimes dropping standards ( as discussed in another thread) some units kept having exremely hard ones.

It really just applies to USASOC.

NSWs gap between the SEAL teams and their SMU isn't as big as ours is.

 

[Tropicana98]

It really just applies to USASOC.

NSWs gap between the SEAL teams and their SMU isn't as big as ours is.

Any way to expand on this without compromising anything? What would cause their gap to be smaller than 75th/SF and the Army SMU?...Probably the most borderline question ever but hopefully it can be answered.