The Trump Presidency 2.0

I want the staffer who added Goldberg fired.
If Waltz added Goldberg, then I want to know the extent of their relationship.
I think that's an interesting question- Goldberg has a super long history of (as graciously as I can here) slightly negative coverage on DJT. It's not like his name wasn't known, even to the dumbest staffer. But still...

.. why was he in anyone's contact list at all? What are the odds of the one person you end up adding to a group chat also just so happens to be a platformed journalist with a big following built from a career of obviously biased rhetoric?

I am going with Hanlon's razor (incompetence before maliciousness) on this one- while suspicious and it would be easy to connect those dots, sometimes the world is just weird and people are idiots. Some dumb staffer who had Goldberg's contact info saved in signal was breathlessly creating a group chat and hit the wrong contact. I also don't check every name on every huge group chat I am added to, so it probably went unnoticed.
 
Yeah, it was out there before I said it—I just caught up on X—but that's going to be the line.

Now we will see if Goldberg overplayed his hand, got excited about what a civilian thinks is a dead-to-rights violation, has a history of bias, and got out over his skis.
I think it's gonna be a bit of both. It seems like a pretty clear violation, but it isn't so egregious that there won't be successful circling of the wagons, especially if some staffers takes the fall.

I don't think the average person will understand that saying "we're launching F18s and Reapers at this time to strike at this time" could allow enemy actors the ability to work backwards and narrow down likely launch points/targets.

The new "focus" now will be why Waltz (or is staffer) added Goldberg and why not one single person verified who this unknown/non contributing name was. (You hit on this as i was typing).
 
I think it's gonna be a bit of both. It seems like a pretty clear violation, but it isn't so egregious that there won't be successful circling of the wagons, especially if some staffers takes the fall.

I don't think the average person will understand that saying "we're launching F18s and Reapers at this time to strike at this time" could allow enemy actors the ability to work backwards and narrow down likely launch points/targets.

The new "focus" now will be why Waltz (or is staffer) added Goldberg and why not one single person verified who this unknown/non contributing name was. (You hit on this as i was typing).
Mind meld.

To your bolded- violation of what? What's the charge here- if we are firing people (I am in) and it's serious, I want charges because we have to rebaseline all these things. So what's the charge? And who specifically gets it?
 
I'm not gonna type this in all caps- but I am not fucking with you here. This message is not me being a dick or setting up a gotcha.

I just read the entire signal chat- @AWP in your estimation, can you make the case for a no-shit spillage there? OPSEC is a no brainer- times, places, actions. @GOTWA you mentioned Tulsi would have to take her OCA again when she said there was no spillage here- is there a specific section that's a home run? Again, I stress I am not joking, I have no clue as to how the IT game works except from end user.

In my estimation, it is spillage. Specifying times and airframes would, should make it secret. I know you've seen ATO's, but I don't know if you ever saw the Excel spreadsheet used to break that document down into graphical chunks. Anyway, times and aircraft make up 2 of the 5 lines of data with radio freqs, location, and call sign the rest...as of 2021 at least. I would argue there's enough to warrant spillage.

That said, the SCG's matrix would tell us what information aggregates up to whatever classification level. None of us have that. Plus, if the SECDEF "declassified" it all with a wave of the hand...eh, it's unclassified. Done.

One other reason you can say it is spillage, bit of a strawman here, but "Would private snuffy catch a charge for releasing that info?"

The bigger problem is SECDEF saying they're clean on OPSEC and then demonstrating he has no idea what the word means.
 
Mind meld.

To your bolded- violation of what? What's the charge here- if we are firing people (I am in) and it's serious, I want charges because we have to rebaseline all these things. So what's the charge? And who specifically gets it?

This seems like an OPSEC violation and general spillage (unintentional or intentional TBD).
I'm not in that space like some of our other members, so I can't make a determination as to if charges are applicable or not.

I think if this situation happened at my level we'd have pretty decent peepee slaps from our 2 shop, if not outright jeopardize my ability to have a clearance.

If we're in a world where we remove political party from the equation and pretend everybody was a mid level enlisted/officer:

Waltz and Hegseth are the two that are closest to "you're fired". Waltz for adding the journo, Hegseth for sharing the actual information.
Gabbard and Ratcliffe might not rise to the level of fired, but it's concerning that our DNI/CIA director are ok with that information being shared over signal.
Everybody else gets off with a counseling.
 
In my estimation, it is spillage. Specifying times and airframes would, should make it secret. I know you've seen ATO's, but I don't know if you ever saw the Excel spreadsheet used to break that document down into graphical chunks. Anyway, times and aircraft make up 2 of the 5 lines of data with radio freqs, location, and call sign the rest...as of 2021 at least. I would argue there's enough to warrant spillage.

That said, the SCG's matrix would tell us what information aggregates up to whatever classification level. None of us have that. Plus, if the SECDEF "declassified" it all with a wave of the hand...eh, it's unclassified. Done.

One other reason you can say it is spillage, bit of a strawman here, but "Would private snuffy catch a charge for releasing that info?"

The bigger problem is SECDEF saying they're clean on OPSEC and then demonstrating he has no idea what the word means.
I can tell you as the Ops Supe that had to answer why some of my dudes accidentally gmailed a couple COFs with enough borderline information that it pinged the security folks... no, they wouldn't catch a charge for that group text. They'd be strongly counseled and go through the appropriate Intel remediation, cause that's what we did.

To your bolded I 100% agree. My bet is it doesn't matter now that they're haveing the spillage/OPSEC definitional battle- he'll just walk it back. When are these people going to learn not to make any hard claims early in these things? Cause that's the move.
 
This seems like an OPSEC violation and general spillage (unintentional or intentional TBD).
I'm not in that space like some of our other members, so I can't make a determination as to if charges are applicable or not.

I think if this situation happened at my level we'd have pretty decent peepee slaps from our 2 shop, if not outright jeopardize my ability to have a clearance.

If we're in a world where we remove political party from the equation and pretend everybody was a mid level enlisted/officer:

Waltz and Hegseth are the two that are closest to "you're fired". Waltz for adding the journo, Hegseth for sharing the actual information.
Gabbard and Ratcliffe might not rise to the level of fired, but it's concerning that our DNI/CIA director are ok with that information being shared over signal.
Everybody else gets off with a counseling.
Interesting, good post.
 
Using Whataboutism...what's worse the government participating in an investigation to smear a candidate and subvert an election or a strike authorization that if you didn't know the background on tells you nothing?
 
Funny fact.
Biden admin approved Signal for use by government officials, I wonder what level of classification it has?
Adding the Journo was a huge mistake.
The rest seems partisan, we told a shit to of people what was happening and I always assumed my data was compromised once given to NATO.

We use Signal a ton. Always been told it's secure but we shouldn't send anything that would be considered any level of "controlled/classified" over it.
 
We use Signal a ton. Always been told it's secure but we shouldn't send anything that would be considered any level of "controlled/classified" over it.

I’d have to dig up the email, but CUI has to go through Teams. No alternative apps were provided so we’ve taken that to mean Teams is the only approved platform.
 
Holy cow. I'm so far behind on this spillage story. This thread has gotten away from me as well.

Are we still basically at the point where NSA and SECDEF are downplaying the severity of this issue and looking for new shiny objects to refocus everyone's attention? Or is there more to it now?

On a different note:
 
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@amlove21

Gonna caveat that this information is available to anyone with web access, so it's nothing special.

The information must fall within one or more of the categories of information listed in E.O. 13526,Sec. 1.4. These are the eight categories of information eligible for classification:
(a) Military plans, weapons systems, or operations
(b) Foreign government information
(c) Intelligence activities (including covert action), intelligence sources or methods,
or cryptology
(d) Foreign relations or foreign activities of the United States, including confidential
sources
(e) Scientific, technological, or economic matters relating to national security
(f) U.S. Government programs for safeguarding nuclear materials or facilities
(g) Vulnerabilities or capabilities of systems, installations, infrastructures, projects,
plans, or protection services relating to national security
(h) The development, production, or use of weapons of mass destruction.

And if you click here, page 16 and 17 are great reading for what information would qualify for classification.

As @AWP pointed out, a system HAS to be accredited for CUI. For example, accessing OWA from your personal laptop and pulling up emails with PII is an absolute no-go. All that U//FOUO stuff everyone use to keep on their personal laptop...not authorized. Accessing SIGNAL from your government phone, also not authorized because SIGNAL isn't accredited. At worst, this whole issue is classified collateral secret, and at best, it's an unauthorized disclosure of CUI. You cannot convince me otherwise that this is unclassified information and fit for the public domain. Bottom line, it's a spill.

INFOSEC is a game of risk mitigation, and ultimately, risk acceptance. You brought up earlier the hypothetical operational environment overseas and the methods and resources you could be stuck with to get the mission done. If you don't figure out, you fail. Risk accepted. Got it. I 100% understand the circumstances and that the environment dictates the COA. The problem is this isn't that. If I was the security manager responsible for that office I would be throwing shit across the room right now. The response that SECDEF gave is absolutely not how you make this go away, now look where they're at.

The journalist, love him or hate him, held all of the cards. And continues to do so. So...SECDEF comes out, smirks on camera and begins to shit all over this dude's character, stating this was all fake news, he can’t be trusted, etc. After all of that, he simply ends it with "nobody was texting war plans". The WORST thing you could ever possibly say is "I can neither confirm nor deny" because all you're doing is confirming. You simply say, I know nothing about that. By ending that interview with that statement he confirmed the message chain existed. Good job. And then by shitting all over this guy, he’s angry. Then the administration starts to double down saying everyone was fine and that no classified information was released and OPSEC wasn't violated. And just so we’re clear, OPSEC is a method of analysis to identify critical information. You can't tell me with a straight face that hit times and operational resources on an upcoming strike aren't classified, or even OPSEC. Anyways, now they say the info was good for public release, because it wasn’t the above, he releases it…

The appropriate response to this shit is “hey, we know an individual might’ve made it into a chat thread where sensitive information may have been revealed. We’re looking into it and will conduct a full analysis. We will make a determination on how to move forward following the results of that analysis.”

AND THEN YOU FLY SOMEONE TO THE FUCKING JOURNALIST AND TAKE HIS PHONE and then you figure out how far it went. And then you slap an NDA in fucking front of him and say sign. And then we take a second, breath, and move on. You don’t make it a point to call this dude out so he doubles down on the story.

SECDEF is way out of his element and I think the mountain he needs to climb to get there is just too steep.

ETA: And do I think the conversation should've been had on Signal? No, I don't, but I get it. The risk of compromise to the mission was minimal, if not non-existent, and they accepted that risk. I believe they are in positions to do that. The introduction of extreme risk came when they introduced homeboy to the chat. The thing that pisses me off the most isn't what happened, but how it was handled, or rather, wasn't handled.

ETA2: This would've been over had this been the initial response.

 
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We use Signal a ton. Always been told it's secure but we shouldn't send anything that would be considered any level of "controlled/classified" over it.

Let's roll back to June 2012, I'm in the schoolhouse, the new commander takes over. He makes the class leader download whatsapp, he only communicates to him through whatsapp. Class leader then emails us all on our Army.Mil accounts which to get to was a pain in the ass even with the supplied computers.
 
(a) Military plans, weapons systems, or operations

Out of any real context from that message from the SECDEF, I don't really know who is doing what to whom and where. I honestly was thinking Goldberg was gonna show some legit CONOPs or something, but instead he just mentions the info being in their high-side emails and then provides some mission updates. Something that journalists in the past would have been privy to with an embargo on when they could share. Not knowing who was in that chat is the biggest mistake and definitely amateur hour. But I'd say retrain on the OPSEC violation and move on.

Also, we've been using Signal as a primary comms platform for a very long time. Especially since Wickr went away.
 
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