ThunderHorse
Verified Military
We put a lot of COPs in valleys and canyons in that country because FOGOs don't understand this thing called "high ground".
Next thing with these guys is they're gonna go after dead guys it seems.
This man does NOT like Jocko...
- Thread starter Devildoc
- Start date
We put a lot of COPs in valleys and canyons in that country because FOGOs don't understand this thing called "high ground".
Next thing with these guys is they're gonna go after dead guys it seems.
The Quartermaster
Verified Military
- Joined
- May 3, 2020
- Messages
- 921
I've met the guys from Keating, before it was even named after 1LT Keating. 10th was relieved by 82nd and these guys while waiting to go back like the rest of us, were walking up or down Disney in Bagram and completely staring through everything.
There was this mini DFAC near OGA's camp that they had sat next to us and the conversation was very somber. It was then that I had learned about them being put in the low ground. They had a platoon on a bit higher elevation but it wasn't much. I was dumbfounded.
Kraut783
SOF Support
The landscape in Kunar Province is...unforgiving...beautiful though. I can't imagine going through the area in a four man team....
Asadabad in 2002 was an old Spetsnaz camp...in the low area of three higher elevation mountains with a road and river on the fourth side, later called Camp Wright. It's one of the places when there is a full moon on a clear night, we're getting incoming.
Asadabad in 2002 was an old Spetsnaz camp...in the low area of three higher elevation mountains with a road and river on the fourth side, later called Camp Wright. It's one of the places when there is a full moon on a clear night, we're getting incoming.
Last edited:
Topkick
Verified Military
I'd just like to see all these guys go back to being Quiet Professionals, FWIW.
I'm pretty certain we have a rather distinguished member of this forum say that mission is taught at DoD schools of how not to run a recon operation.
---
I've been pretty vocal about my doubts regarding Luttrell's story and poo-pooed for daring to question the narrative. To all of my haters, "haze yourselves."
I was at Bagram when this went down, fighting the war one to go tray at a time. My "roommates" in Camp Cunningham were TACPs and long story short, we were kind of ADCON to them because no one knew what to do with us; we were orphans, but I digress.
Anyway, the afternoon of Turbine 33's downing, I was walking to work or to the shower (I worked night shift) when one of the TACPs ran past me saying a helo was shot down, a bunch of SEALs were involved, the JOC was chaos, etc. Damn. Better make sure my radios in J-bad are G2G which used the Iridium network as its backbone.*
A week or something later I saw him again and asked him what was up. We saw the news, but details were obviously thin. What I remember is him saying "something isn't right" about the whole story and he left it at that. I asked what he meant, he said he had to go, and 2-3 days later I'd moved to Kandahar for the next year and those guys were a million miles away.
I saw Luttrell's interviews and read his book, and they didn't match. When the movie came out, it was pure Hollywood, but also brought about a new round of interviews. Luttrell's book still didn't match what he was saying. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. TBI, the trauma of losing your whole team...the man has reason to miss some of the details. Then SF, Rangers, and PJs involved began speaking out and blowing Luttrell's narrative out of the water. It didn't "matter" because a hero was crowned, another (Murphy) made immortal, anyone speaking up was a hater, and people believe the first story they hear. His legend was secure.
Now his story is falling apart, even by his own admission. It also makes sense that the book and interviews are different because he didn't write the book. Let's be cynical but pragmatic for a moment. Iraq at its height, the country needed good PR, and the SEAL community has never lacked for self-promotion. It makes sense he didn't write the book and that it came out within 2 years of Redwing. Someone shat out a narrative and rushed it to publication (2 years!). Whatever Luttrell's faults, I think his participation in the book was minimal. Hell, some of the things he's being blamed for were probably created by a third party and he's been told to stick to the story.
* - I mention Iridiums because that was the team's only method of commo after their SATCOM failed. The team failed the most basic of communications planning by not having other options. I am intimately familiar with Iridiums in Afghanistan because of my job and there is no way in hell I'd have trusted that as my go-to-hell commo method. Anyone who used them more than a few days knew the constellation had 2-6 minute gaps in coverage, AT BEST, when it worked at all. Because they were publicly available, you could easily pull up the network's state, outage windows, etc. down to the individual satellite number. I find it odd none of this is ever mentioned in interviews.
I was at FOB Bostick conducting a site survey approximately 7-10 days after the fight. Bostick's DFAC was understandably small so space was at a premium. Two soldiers asked if they could sit at my table and after a few minutes I asked, like a dumbass, if they knew anyone at Keating. This PFC never looked up from his tray. "Yeah, we were there." My face flushed, I don't think anyone can understand how shitty I felt, so I muttered my apologies and condolences, then finished lunch like I was in Basic again and hauled ass. Bostick's position was horrendous and I know Keating's was far worse.
Devildoc
Verified Military
There are a couple pretty good books about Red Wings, and none paint NSW in a favorable light. That team paid the price of their leadership's mandate to 'get in the fight' and refusal to heed anyone's advice, a fight they really had no business being in, a fight which the Marines had told them they didn't need to be in, and a mission that other had advised them against taking.
I don't give a lot of stock to the veracity of someone's first-person narrative; everyone sees the same event from a different perspective, and that's OK. But there were more holes in his story than a block of Swiss cheese.
I don't give a lot of stock to the veracity of someone's first-person narrative; everyone sees the same event from a different perspective, and that's OK. But there were more holes in his story than a block of Swiss cheese.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
All I can say is Marcus spoke at VMI, Hilary Clinton spoke at VMI, one of them was compulsory...and the other had the entire corps go voluntarily.
He signed my book. But...we read his book for MSIV year and were taught how not to do that as recon...and then at ABOLC, and then at something else yada yada.
I'm not SOF, will never be SOF, but I often feel like there are a bunch of formations that act like the Ike Clanton's Cowboys in Tombstone.
I've been on some spicy terrain in training ops and alone and unafraid in training...but NOTHING like that. And my only stories are training ones, so I'm not an expert on combat. I just read books and battle analysis these days. I'm a glorified spreadsheet guy most days.
Mission was totally FUBAR, but I feel like at that time guys were playing fast and loose and told to go find things...
Two podcasts who went after Kennedy have found those specific videos age restricted by Youtube. One was later reinstated on appeal, one (The original Antihero to kick this off) was not. This "soft demonetizes" those videos because some ads can't run on age restricted content.
Someone's fanboi camp is maaaaddddd...
Someone's fanboi camp is maaaaddddd...
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Very slight. Also, Kennedy isn't as pro gun as people think.
Also, does everything have to be viewed through a political lens? I understand this is 2024 America, but c'mon.
0%.
They had a 2 hour podcast the day after the election celebrating Trump's win.
So far Tim's defense has been "this is a political attack from jealous vets", but these dudes are calling out stuff in his book that people have said his BS.
Tim claims in his book he was(paraphrasing) "injured and saw the team medic who wanted to evacuate me, but i stayed in the fight".
These guys call him out on his lack of PH. Tim then responds and says he "never got around to it because I was a coalition asset away from my team when I got hurt."
Now that medic reached out to these dudes to tell them he never remembers treating Tim's injuries.
That's just one example.
It's more likely Tim was trying to build up his myth for a political career after retirement and his use of dead servicemembers for false stories has finally pushed other vets to respond.
The Quartermaster
Verified Military
- Joined
- May 3, 2020
- Messages
- 921
Perhaps I should have phrased that better, but for many their default reaction is to make something political. Not view it as political, make it or dismiss something, or whatever as politically motivated.
Going after someone who is pro-Trump or pro-Harris doesn't automatically make them a supporter of the other side. If our identities as people are tied into our political views...that is sad. Pathetic.
Topkick
Verified Military
The Quartermaster
Verified Military
- Joined
- May 3, 2020
- Messages
- 921
Identities, relationships, social media user pages...all political based.
People tie their identities to lots of things that doesn't even have to be political. Glock fans are just one representative of that aspect. The manual transmission or die car folks is another one. But political driven has been the top of all of those. It's why it is the first of things assumed to be suspect about.
I see someone being charged in what appears to be good legal case of self defense, I'm going to look into the DA and see where they stand politically to confirm things. Sad that we have to do such things these days? Yup. Sadder that people are making it political despite it being in compliance with the laws of this land? Truly. Pathetic.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
I know there are people who have disliked Kennedy because he essentially got a ton of privileges. Understand though, your beef shouldn't be with him. It should be with Big Army for using him and making him into a celebrity. Army loved using him for promotional activities.
But I go back to why now? Remember, as far as we can tell, but how many people who actually served with him have said a thing? Haven't seen any.
Jealousy is a wild thing.
______
Not related to Kennedy, but I work in Rugby right. I'm nobody as far as actually being a player, best I ever played was Division 2 and we lost more games than we won. BUT, I have major issues with how USA 7s is allowed to directly recruit people into the Army's World Class athlete program go to boot camp, and if they're good enough, they spend 4-8 years only playing rugby. Are never a Soldier. There's two captains on the teams right now, a male and a female. Neither of these two has even been to BOLC! They went from West Point to WCAP. They have never done Army Officer things.
As a guy who did have incredible athletes that played around me, who could have made it that far had there been a trials process? Yeah it pisses me off. But I don't go on podcasts to take down an Olympian either.
But I go back to why now? Remember, as far as we can tell, but how many people who actually served with him have said a thing? Haven't seen any.
Jealousy is a wild thing.
______
Not related to Kennedy, but I work in Rugby right. I'm nobody as far as actually being a player, best I ever played was Division 2 and we lost more games than we won. BUT, I have major issues with how USA 7s is allowed to directly recruit people into the Army's World Class athlete program go to boot camp, and if they're good enough, they spend 4-8 years only playing rugby. Are never a Soldier. There's two captains on the teams right now, a male and a female. Neither of these two has even been to BOLC! They went from West Point to WCAP. They have never done Army Officer things.
As a guy who did have incredible athletes that played around me, who could have made it that far had there been a trials process? Yeah it pisses me off. But I don't go on podcasts to take down an Olympian either.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
So um, since this thread is kinda like a Stolen Valor thread. As I have played this sport, and I work in this sport. I can tell you 80 tackles can't happen by an individual. 30 is possible. Our tackles leader in MLR this year had 27 in a match a few times. But a Median tackle rate for a high workrate player in 15-18.
So, Shrek, where you at?
Devildoc
Verified Military
I know him, have taken some classes. He lives about 50 miles away, and his training is really very top-notch and innovative.
That said. He's gone all-in weird with BJJ. It's a great sport, but he's gotten pathological, treating it like some mystic art.
Similar threads
