United States & Gun Control discussion.

[Cookie_]

When you said "there is not a single right that is guaranteed," I think you meant "absolute." If you think none of our rights are guaranteed, then we probably need to have a completely different discussion.

This was my line of thinking. Colloquially the two are commonly used interchangeably, and I should have clarified that on the board.

I also should have been more specific that my statement regarding firearms was not intended to be directed specifically at you, but people with the mindset of the right being absolute.

Apologies for that. Sometimes the way things are written seem clear to us when (as in this case) that's not how they are received.

 

[Blizzard]

Way to go, dumbasses.
Misfire: California AG publishes names and addresses of judges and police on gun website

And... tells everyone who is in law enforcement.

Not an "accident".

 

[amlove21]

...snip...

When you said "there is not a single right that is guaranteed," I think you meant "absolute." If you think none of our rights are guaranteed, then we probably need to have a completely different discussion.

You left an important part of your last statement: "...always the first thing attacked or controlled by governments," being, "with the use or threat of coercive force." Disagree all you want, but political violence is what founded our country. We did not printing-press and town-crier our way to freedom. Speech is necessary but insufficient in the face of repressive tyranny, then now and always. Fortunately I do not think we live in a repressive tyranny. But we need to jealously guard our rights so it doesn't become that way.

You can try to talk someone out of depriving you of life, liberty, and property; sometimes that may work. But when it doesn't, you need to be able to secure it, dare I say guarantee it, by lethal force. It's an important part of the "three boxes of liberty" triad that has served us well since our founding.

Fuckin this. Wish I could like posts more than once.

 

[Muppet]

Fuckin this. Wish I could like posts more than once.

Ditto brother. Ditto.

 

[Blizzard]

That's a ridiculous assessment of my position on rights in general, and 2A in particular. Neither you, nor anyone on this board, have ever heard me make a claim such as the one you just outlined. It's reductio ad absurdum and unworthy of the kind of discussion I thought you were seeking.

In our Republic all rights are bound. The problem with 2A rights arises from a disagreement over what makes a restriction reasonable and what starts making it an infringement. That's the discourse I'm interested in having.

When you said "there is not a single right that is guaranteed," I think you meant "absolute." If you think none of our rights are guaranteed, then we probably need to have a completely different discussion.

You left an important part of your last statement: "...always the first thing attacked or controlled by governments," being, "with the use or threat of coercive force." Disagree all you want, but political violence is what founded our country. We did not printing-press and town-crier our way to freedom. Speech is necessary but insufficient in the face of repressive tyranny, then now and always. Fortunately I do not think we live in a repressive tyranny. But we need to jealously guard our rights so it doesn't become that way.

You can try to talk someone out of depriving you of life, liberty, and property; sometimes that may work. But when it doesn't, you need to be able to secure it, dare I say guarantee it, by lethal force. It's an important part of the "three boxes of liberty" triad that has served us well since our founding.

 

[SpongeBob*24]

Really wished I could have met Abe Lincoln.......damn guns!!!!

 

[Marauder06]

The State of New York just convened an emergency session and dropped a whole bunch of new gun restrictions on us. NY did this explicitly to punish 2A supporters in our state. They are mad that their ridiculous and unconstitutional "may issue" provision got struck down by the Supreme Court (and they're probably mad about the Dobbs decision also), and they lashed out. It's a garbage law and it's going to get shot down. But that's going to take years, and meanwhile those of us who live here are going to have to suffer under it.

New York approves gun law requiring buyers to provide social media handles

Below are some initial reactions based solely on the article above and a quick read of a summary the legislation. I may adjust the below perspective after I dig more into the law myself.

The new law will require people trying to purchase a handgun license to hand over a list of social media accounts they have maintained over the last three years, so officials can verify their "character and conduct."

The State of NY, whose elected officials are constantly under the microscope for moral and criminal offenses, and whose most recent elected governor governor had to resign in disgrace over a series of sex scandals, is going to verify **my** character and conduct? lol... no. Who is going to verify THEIR character and THEIR conduct?

Character is such a loaded word, and such a subjective characteristic. What is going to be a disqualifying characteristic in NY, being a registered Republican? Re-tweeting Daily Wire posts? This is ripe for potential abuse. And what does "list of social media accounts" even mean? My accounts are private and semi-anonymous, good luck finding out anything there. Or are you expecting me to give you my usernames and passwords too? I didn't even have to do that for my top secret security clearance. In any case, fuck right on off with that noise.

Individuals applying for a license to carry a handgun will also be required to provide four character references and take 16 hours of gun safety training and two hours of shooting practice at a range. They will be subject to periodic background checks and will have to turn over social media accounts and contact information for adults living in their household.

Character references isn't new, I was asked for that when I applied for a permit the last time I lived here. In fact, that's what stopped me from completing the process. Four character references? Fuck you, it's none of anyone else's business if I want to legally own a handgun or not. That's between the state and me. Plus the references have to be notarized, which is another haze and (unless you have free access) another expense (x4) for the applicants. And what are these references going to be used for? Can someone sue a referrer if the applicant later shoots someone illegally? It's just another time consuming haze, and I'm embarrassed to say that in my case it worked. It's completely useless and serves only to make the process more difficult, expensive, and time consuming.

And turn over social media accounts and contact information for adults living in my household?? Double fuck you. My 18-year-old daughter is not a party to my pistol permit application, and her social media is DEFINITELY not the business of the State of New York.

Firearms will also be barred from private establishments unless business owners explicitly state that they are allowed. Businesses must post a sign granting permission to armed patrons. In many other states, businesses that do not permit guns typically have to post signs indicating that firearms are not allowed.

So now business owners get to arbitrarily decide whether or not to deprive someone of their rights?? Pretty sure we already decided some cases about this... Making property owners affirm 2A rights in their establishments is a clear attempt at intimidation of businesses, as it would actively discourage patrons from going there, and would set them up for lawsuits if anything involving weapons occurs on the premises. And if I do eventually get a permit and I walk into a place that doesn't explicitly confirm my constitutional rights, I'm suddenly a felon? Wow.

The legislation also requires background checks for ammunition sales and creates a statewide license and ammunition database.

So on top of government-created ammo shortages, now they're going to track how much ammo I buy when I am actually able to find it? Again, what is it you think you're going to do with this information, and how long is it going to be before you start making me account for each and every bullet? This is another attempt at intimidating, inconveniencing, and harassing gun owners. Right before I moved to NY the first time, a newspaper took it upon themselves to release the names, addresses, and a convenient map of registered gun owners, opening them up to harassment and potential targeting. The same thing is going to happen with this new registry.

Furthermore, registration is often the first step towards confiscation, as evidenced by what happened in CT (where I came from before I moved to NY for the first time) over AR-15s. Moreover, its what far-left liberals similar to the ones running this state ultimately want to do with guns.

I'm pretty pissed off about these new laws but right now there's not a whole lot I can do other than comply while I figure out what the best way for me to legally contribute to the process of getting this ridiculousness overturned.

 

[Cookie_]

They are mad that their ridiculous and unconstitutional "may issue" provision got struck down by the Supreme Court (and they're probably mad about the Dobbs decision also), and they lashed out. It's a garbage law and it's going to get shot down. But that's going to take years, and meanwhile those of us who live here are going to have to suffer under it.

This honestly sounds like taking some of the abortion laws that some states had (ultrasound, waiting period, minimal location, etc) to not "ban" it, but make it has difficult as possible to achieve.
The court decision only struck down the "may issue" part of the law, not licensing requirements as a whole. so it looks like NY is pushing to see what "undue difficulty" actually is.

So now business owners get to arbitrarily decide whether or not to deprive someone of their rights?? Pretty sure we already decided some cases about this... Making property owners affirm 2A rights in their establishments is a clear attempt at intimidation of businesses, as it would actively discourage patrons from going there, and would set them up for lawsuits if anything involving weapons occurs on the premises. And if I do eventually get a permit and I walk into a place that doesn't explicitly confirm my constitutional rights, I'm suddenly a felon? Wow.

I can find it in my cursory reading, but is it criminalizing carrying in a business that doesn't have a "firearms allowed" sign? Because this standard is already crazy, but that is extra crazy. I can't imagine that would stand up to a legal challenge.

So on top of government-created ammo shortages, now they're going to track how much ammo I buy when I am actually able to find it? Again, what is it you think you're going to do with this information, and how long is it going to be before you start making me account for each and every bullet? This is another attempt at intimidating, inconveniencing, and harassing gun owners. Right before I moved to NY the first time, a newspaper took it upon themselves to release the names, addresses, and a convenient map of registered gun owners, opening them up to harassment and potential targeting. The same thing is going to happen with this new registry.

Furthermore, registration is often the first step towards confiscation, as evidenced by what happened in CT (where I came from before I moved to NY for the first time) over AR-15s. Moreover, its what far-left liberals similar to the ones running this state ultimately want to do with guns.

I'm pretty pissed off about these new laws but right now there's not a whole lot I can do other than comply while I figure out what the best way for me to legally contribute to the process of getting this ridiculousness overturned.

Background checks for ammo is dumb, but I'm willing to bet it would probably pass a legal challenge at higher levels. Registration is also stupid, but that's already a done deal as far as legality goes.

---

I've said it before, the best ways to target gun violence target personal behaviors (violent crimes, stalking, etc) and provide increased access to social services (mental/psych), not target the weapons themselves, but it's easier (politically) to say "bang bang sticks are bad" than it is to actually address real issues.

 

[ThunderHorse]

The State of New York just convened an emergency session and dropped a whole bunch of new gun restrictions on us. NY did this explicitly to punish 2A supporters in our state. They are mad that their ridiculous and unconstitutional "may issue" provision got struck down by the Supreme Court (and they're probably mad about the Dobbs decision also), and they lashed out. It's a garbage law and it's going to get shot down. But that's going to take years, and meanwhile those of us who live here are going to have to suffer under it.

New York approves gun law requiring buyers to provide social media handles

Below are some initial reactions based solely on the article above and a quick read of a summary the legislation. I may adjust the below perspective after I dig more into the law myself.



The State of NY, whose elected officials are constantly under the microscope for moral and criminal offenses, and whose most recent elected governor governor had to resign in disgrace over a series of sex scandals, is going to verify **my** character and conduct? lol... no. Who is going to verify THEIR character and THEIR conduct?

Character is such a loaded word, and such a subjective characteristic. What is going to be a disqualifying characteristic in NY, being a registered Republican? Re-tweeting Daily Wire posts? This is ripe for potential abuse. And what does "list of social media accounts" even mean? My accounts are private and semi-anonymous, good luck finding out anything there. Or are you expecting me to give you my usernames and passwords too? I didn't even have to do that for my top secret security clearance. In any case, fuck right on off with that noise.



Character references isn't new, I was asked for that when I applied for a permit the last time I lived here. In fact, that's what stopped me from completing the process. Four character references? Fuck you, it's none of anyone else's business if I want to legally own a handgun or not. That's between the state and me. Plus the references have to be notarized, which is another haze and (unless you have free access) another expense (x4) for the applicants. And what are these references going to be used for? Can someone sue a referrer if the applicant later shoots someone illegally? It's just another time consuming haze, and I'm embarrassed to say that in my case it worked. It's completely useless and serves only to make the process more difficult, expensive, and time consuming.

And turn over social media accounts and contact information for adults living in my household?? Double fuck you. My 18-year-old daughter is not a party to my pistol permit application, and her social media is DEFINITELY not the business of the State of New York.



So now business owners get to arbitrarily decide whether or not to deprive someone of their rights?? Pretty sure we already decided some cases about this... Making property owners affirm 2A rights in their establishments is a clear attempt at intimidation of businesses, as it would actively discourage patrons from going there, and would set them up for lawsuits if anything involving weapons occurs on the premises. And if I do eventually get a permit and I walk into a place that doesn't explicitly confirm my constitutional rights, I'm suddenly a felon? Wow.



So on top of government-created ammo shortages, now they're going to track how much ammo I buy when I am actually able to find it? Again, what is it you think you're going to do with this information, and how long is it going to be before you start making me account for each and every bullet? This is another attempt at intimidating, inconveniencing, and harassing gun owners. Right before I moved to NY the first time, a newspaper took it upon themselves to release the names, addresses, and a convenient map of registered gun owners, opening them up to harassment and potential targeting. The same thing is going to happen with this new registry.

Furthermore, registration is often the first step towards confiscation, as evidenced by what happened in CT (where I came from before I moved to NY for the first time) over AR-15s. Moreover, its what far-left liberals similar to the ones running this state ultimately want to do with guns.

I'm pretty pissed off about these new laws but right now there's not a whole lot I can do other than comply while I figure out what the best way for me to legally contribute to the process of getting this ridiculousness overturned.

The crest of Virginia is on the service cap of every VMI Cadet. The motto of the state: Sic Semper Tyrranus.

The people of NY State love tyrants as seen by their draconian laws that go back over 100 years. By the people of the city who are the largest voting block who vote in tyrants en masse as borough presidents and mayors.

Also, the rights we have protected in the first 10 amendments are those ordained by God, they cannot be taken. They were placed there to codify the limits upon government because a King once tried to take them all away. Maybe that's simplistic, but uh, as @amlove21 famously said: "Come back with a warrant."

 

[Marauder06]

, as @amlove21 famously said: "Come back with a warrant."

That's the thing though, this is NY and they absolutely will come at me with a warrant. And that's mandatory jail time in this state.

When I lived on West Point, it was federal property so state gun laws did not apply. I registered all of my guns with the Provost Marshall's office as required by local regulation / UCMJ (lawful order) and they lived happily in my gun safe, where I could take them out to shoot at the range or in competition, and had them on hand for my own protection.

Now I live about a mile outside of West Point's front gate, and I'm a felon if I have those same weapons and magazines in my home. A mile away, but a world apart.

I'm fortunate because I an the OIC of cadet shooting club so my NY-illegal guns and magazines can and do legally stay in the arms room. But I shouldn't have to do that.

 

[RackMaster]

Now that is getting beyond Canuckistan stupid for gun laws. And that says a lot.

 

[Muppet]

The State of New York just convened an emergency session and dropped a whole bunch of new gun restrictions on us. NY did this explicitly to punish 2A supporters in our state. They are mad that their ridiculous and unconstitutional "may issue" provision got struck down by the Supreme Court (and they're probably mad about the Dobbs decision also), and they lashed out. It's a garbage law and it's going to get shot down. But that's going to take years, and meanwhile those of us who live here are going to have to suffer under it.

New York approves gun law requiring buyers to provide social media handles

Below are some initial reactions based solely on the article above and a quick read of a summary the legislation. I may adjust the below perspective after I dig more into the law myself.



The State of NY, whose elected officials are constantly under the microscope for moral and criminal offenses, and whose most recent elected governor governor had to resign in disgrace over a series of sex scandals, is going to verify **my** character and conduct? lol... no. Who is going to verify THEIR character and THEIR conduct?

Character is such a loaded word, and such a subjective characteristic. What is going to be a disqualifying characteristic in NY, being a registered Republican? Re-tweeting Daily Wire posts? This is ripe for potential abuse. And what does "list of social media accounts" even mean? My accounts are private and semi-anonymous, good luck finding out anything there. Or are you expecting me to give you my usernames and passwords too? I didn't even have to do that for my top secret security clearance. In any case, fuck right on off with that noise.



Character references isn't new, I was asked for that when I applied for a permit the last time I lived here. In fact, that's what stopped me from completing the process. Four character references? Fuck you, it's none of anyone else's business if I want to legally own a handgun or not. That's between the state and me. Plus the references have to be notarized, which is another haze and (unless you have free access) another expense (x4) for the applicants. And what are these references going to be used for? Can someone sue a referrer if the applicant later shoots someone illegally? It's just another time consuming haze, and I'm embarrassed to say that in my case it worked. It's completely useless and serves only to make the process more difficult, expensive, and time consuming.

And turn over social media accounts and contact information for adults living in my household?? Double fuck you. My 18-year-old daughter is not a party to my pistol permit application, and her social media is DEFINITELY not the business of the State of New York.



So now business owners get to arbitrarily decide whether or not to deprive someone of their rights?? Pretty sure we already decided some cases about this... Making property owners affirm 2A rights in their establishments is a clear attempt at intimidation of businesses, as it would actively discourage patrons from going there, and would set them up for lawsuits if anything involving weapons occurs on the premises. And if I do eventually get a permit and I walk into a place that doesn't explicitly confirm my constitutional rights, I'm suddenly a felon? Wow.



So on top of government-created ammo shortages, now they're going to track how much ammo I buy when I am actually able to find it? Again, what is it you think you're going to do with this information, and how long is it going to be before you start making me account for each and every bullet? This is another attempt at intimidating, inconveniencing, and harassing gun owners. Right before I moved to NY the first time, a newspaper took it upon themselves to release the names, addresses, and a convenient map of registered gun owners, opening them up to harassment and potential targeting. The same thing is going to happen with this new registry.

Furthermore, registration is often the first step towards confiscation, as evidenced by what happened in CT (where I came from before I moved to NY for the first time) over AR-15s. Moreover, its what far-left liberals similar to the ones running this state ultimately want to do with guns.

I'm pretty pissed off about these new laws but right now there's not a whole lot I can do other than comply while I figure out what the best way for me to legally contribute to the process of getting this ridiculousness overturned.

When do we start tar and feathering these bastards?

 

[ThunderHorse]

That's the thing though, this is NY and they absolutely will come at me with a warrant. And that's mandatory jail time in this state.

When I lived on West Point, it was federal property so state gun laws did not apply. I registered all of my guns with the Provost Marshall's office as required by local regulation / UCMJ (lawful order) and they lived happily in my gun safe, where I could take them out to shoot at the range or in competition, and had them on hand for my own protection.

Now I live about a mile outside of West Point's front gate, and I'm a felon if I have those same weapons and magazines in my home. A mile away, but a world apart.

I'm fortunate because I an the OIC of cadet shooting club so my NY-illegal guns and magazines can and do legally stay in the arms room. But I shouldn't have to do that.

Brother, I'd heavily encourage you to join me in the great state of Texas. Too many gun grabbers moving here.

 

[Muppet]

Denmark shooting: Several dead after attack at Copenhagen shopping centre

Gun laws are strict, no 2A there, yet, this shit happens. It's almost like criminals don't follow laws while innocent get slaughtered.

 

[Cookie_]

Denmark shooting: Several dead after attack at Copenhagen shopping centre

Gun laws are strict, no 2A there, yet, this shit happens. It's almost like criminals don't follow laws while innocent get slaughtered.

We've had two mass shootings (that killed police officers) in the last week alone in this country, that both occurred in states with pretty open gun laws.

You aren't really making the strong point that you think you are right now. Criminals do criminal shit, but to act like somehow a lack of gun laws prevents this is the dumbest of takes.

 

[ThunderHorse]

We've had two mass shootings (that killed police officers) in the last week alone in this country, that both occurred in states with pretty open gun laws.

You aren't really making the strong point that you think you are right now. Criminals do criminal shit, but to act like somehow a lack of gun laws prevents this is the dumbest of takes.

The fact that you think those two criminals wouldn't do the same shit if the laws were stricter is quite humorous.

 

[AWP]

If criminals cared about laws they wouldn't be criminals.

 

[RackMaster]

We've had two mass shootings (that killed police officers) in the last week alone in this country, that both occurred in states with pretty open gun laws.

You aren't really making the strong point that you think you are right now. Criminals do criminal shit, but to act like somehow a lack of gun laws prevents this is the dumbest of takes.

You mean like this?

6 officers injured in shooting at Saanich, B.C. bank, 2 suspects killed | Globalnews.ca

Or how about this?

Copenhagen worlds safest city? A look at Denmark gun laws post shooting near Harry Styles concert

You can have all the gun laws in the world and criminals will always have access because they don't give a shit about law's. Same as banning gun's doesn't stop access to gun's for criminals. There's always a source. Spend the tax dollars on community outreach, education, make training for law enforcement and civilians more accessible. Actually enforce the thousands of law's already on the books. And stop pandering to the hug a thug activists. Lock them the fuck up and invest in rehabilitation inside facilities. Putting them back on the streets only emboldens them.

 

[Cookie_]

The fact that you think those two criminals wouldn't do the same shit if the laws were stricter is quite humorous.

How many mass shootings has Denmark had compared to say, Texas in the past 5 years? How many people were killed in those shootings?
(That even gives you the freebie "good guy with a gun" scenario somebody always brings up)

I even said in my post that "criminals do criminal shit" but that isn't what's being discussed. It's the implication that somehow strict gun laws don't work because shootings still happen, ignoring that we have vastly more shootings incidents in places with looser laws. That's not a trivial correlation.

We're (probably) never going to be a country without some form of 2A rights (and we shouldn't be); but the hot takes like this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1543674420996317187

'

are fucking stupid.

Overall, Denmark would be the 38th mass shooting this year in the US with three or more killed. If we go by number of people shot it's 26th.
Even getting rid of domestic shootings/gang related shootings, it'd be the 11th mass shooting this year, tied for 8th deadliest.

Spend the tax dollars on community outreach, education, make training for law enforcement and civilians more accessible.

It's a solution that's basically politically dead here. Money for community outreach, education, and social programs are basically only called for by the Dems, who (as a party) almost always opposed firearms.

GOP supports firearms but commonly opposes the types of programs you're talking about. They usually throw more money at police departments, but not communities. (Again, speaking very broadly here).

And stop pandering to the hug a thug activists. Lock them the fuck up and invest in rehabilitation inside facilities.

I work in a prison. The simple act of saying "rehab stuff like education/drug abuse classes/life counseling(think anger management or critical thinking skills)" gets you labeled as a hug a thug.

Our country does not rehabilitate during punishment; we punish, make it harder for them to transition to an actual life on the outside, and then act surprised when our recidivism rate is so high. ( obligatory fuck Kamala and Cali)

 

[AWP]

It's a solution that's basically politically dead here. Money for community outreach, education, and social programs are basically only called for by the Dems, who (as a party) almost always opposed firearms.

GOP supports firearms but commonly opposes the types of programs you're talking about. They usually throw more money at police departments, but not communities. (Again, speaking very broadly here).


I work in a prison. The simple act of saying "rehab stuff like education/drug abuse classes/life counseling(think anger management or critical thinking skills)" gets you labeled as a hug a thug.

Our country does not rehabilitate during punishment; we punish, make it harder for them to transition to an actual life on the outside, and then act surprised when our recidivism rate is so high. ( obligatory fuck Kamala and Cali)

Ah, but probably better for a separate thread is criminal justice reform (defund the police thread?). How both Republican and Democrats fed the Black community (and others) into an endless prison meat grinder, then turned around and blamed one another. Communities were shit on, gun violence went up, and now both parties can make their own pro-gun/ anti-gun arguments. The losers here are people who aren't in a position of power, aka "almost every damn American since the War on Drugs kicked off."

Kind of like my post on abortion earlier today, my rants on Afghanistan, and whatever "pick a problem" argument any of us can make: 2nd and 3rd order effects and/ or a lot of our country's problems are interconnected. One reason I'm staunchly against gun control is because it is part of a broader problem in America, not a one-size-fits-all solution.