United States & Gun Control discussion.

[JHD]

I generally like to stay away from putting ideas in people's heads. Just sayin'.

Yeah you are right. But this is a big issue we need to address now, nationwide. You know someone has thought about it already, they just haven't done it yet.

 

[policemedic]

Perhaps, but we needn't suggest it to the guy who hasn't thought of it but will do it.

 

[JHD]

Perhaps, but we needn't suggest it to the guy who hasn't thought of it but will do it.

Yes, I know the risk you are pointing out. But to get the problems not being addressed, in addition to the ones that every one IS talking about, need to be raised.

The good guys have to think like the bad guys and move on it yesterday.

 

[AWP]

I thought about that and came to the conclusion that it was a no brainer, yes they can afford it, all schools.

Think about the lawsuits that will happen after a shooting, the legal fees alone (forgetting about the actual settlements) would be far far more than the salary of a guard.

People think it won't happen to them, that it will happen to "the other guy." Managers won't look at what they are preventing, they will look at how much they are spending. That's one reason new laws are so attractive to the masses. They are cheaper than any real alternatives or proactive measures.

 

[JHD]

People think it won't happen to them, that it will happen to "the other guy." Managers won't look at what they are preventing, they will look at how much they are spending. That's one reason new laws are so attractive to the masses. They are cheaper than any real alternatives or proactive measures.

And I hate to say it, but also playing the odds that it won't happen rather than spend the money in the event it might.

 

[Marine0311]

Didn't some of the Sandy Hook teachers either shield the kids with their bodies or attempt to disarm the gunman? Makes them warriors in my book.

I don't recall any of those reports. My term "warriors" was meant for police officers and those who are trained to act and react with a firearm.

 

[AWP]

Here we go again. At least no one was injured.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/20/us/georgia-school-gunshots/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

(CNN) -- A gunman who opened fire at a Georgia elementary school on Tuesday was armed with an AK-47 "and a number of other weapons," police said.
The shooter barricaded himself in the school's front office with employees before eventually surrendering to police, DeKalb County Police Chief Cedric Alexander told reporters.
No one was injured, authorities said. Police are investigating whether a vehicle the shooter parked outside the school contained explosives, Alexander said.

 

[AWP]

Surprise, surprise, surprise!

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/08/24/harvard-study-proves-gun-grabbers-argument-dead-wrong-82127
Link to the actual study:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United States compared with other modern developed nations, which is why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate. Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement (b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so.

The study has a ton of notes, stats, charts, etc.

 

[racing_kitty]

Surprise, surprise, surprise!...*snip*

It's an attempt at misinformation by the one lone conservative at Harvard to make The Cause look bad. Now, STFU and put your tin-foil hat back where it belongs. /sarc

 

[x SF med]

Here is some interesting information on militias (historically European and specifically American)....

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/FieldsAndHardy.html
http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/militia/
http://planet.infowars.com/guns/a-well-regulated-militia

the last one is an extremely interesting view....

 

[surgicalcric]

Here we go again. At least no one was injured.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/20/us/georgia-school-gunshots/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

If I was a conspirator it would be easy to think the Govt was behind all these shootings IOT push more stringent gun regulations and circumvent The Constitution.

Talked to a local (SC) sheriff's officer (SWAT) about personal weapon while teaching PHTLS/TC3 to a group of local LE agencies at North American Rescue today. As our discussion matured he confided about how many SOF guys he had come across since he began working as a LEO and how he wasn't looking forward to having to enforce unconstitutional laws given the sheer number of us in the area. I asked why he would enforce a law he deemed unconstitutional and he didn't have an answer. He never asked how many different weapons I owned but we talked at length about ballistics and various weapons.

It amazes me how many LEO I have met admit they will enforce unconstitutional gun laws. It isn't as if you (LEOs) are writing a parking ticket or citing someone for littering or jay-walking. I just don't really get it... I know the ones I noted dont make up the sum of all opinions in the community so could one of you guys here please fill in that blank for me. How do you enforce something that is counter to the US Constitution? Is it ignorance or is it a LEO are right, etc...

 

[policemedic]

If I was a conspirator it would be easy to think the Govt was behind all these shootings IOT push more stringent gun regulations and circumvent The Constitution.

Talked to a local (SC) sheriff's officer (SWAT) about personal weapon while teaching PHTLS/TC3 to a group of local LE agencies at North American Rescue today. As our discussion matured he confided about how many SOF guys he had come across since he began working as a LEO and how he wasn't looking forward to having to enforce unconstitutional laws given the sheer number of us in the area. I asked why he would enforce a law he deemed unconstitutional and he didn't have an answer. He never asked how many different weapons I owned but we talked at length about ballistics and various weapons.

It amazes me how many LEO I have met admit they will enforce unconstitutional gun laws. It isn't as if you (LEOs) are writing a parking ticket or citing someone for littering or jay-walking. I just don't really get it... I know the ones I noted dont make up the sum of all opinions in the community so could one of you guys here please fill in that blank for me. How do you enforce something that is counter to the US Constitution? Is it ignorance or is it a LEO are right, etc...

Tagged for later.

Short answer for now- I won't, nor will anyone under my command.

 

[AWP]

Is it ignorance or is it a LEO are right, etc...

Human psychology, my friend. Historically people have proven time and time again that they will execute some order no matter how wrong they think that order may be. There are controlled studies and who knows how many actual cases where people rationalized their behavior away because they were told to do something. Sure, Nuremburg is the most recent (and vivid) reminder that being told to do something doesn't exonerate you from your actions...but that only matters if you're on the losing side.

Americans, and perhaps all people but I'll focus on who I am and what I know, have this hubris, this misguided idea that "it can't happen here." we've somehow talked ourselves into beliving that our system and our culture will allow us to prevail in the darkest of hours. It worked before, right? Several times, so it will always work, right?

Maybe I'm too much of a pessimist, but people look at other people and see hope, they see light, they see the good in other people. Well, angels and demons reside within us all. If someone wants pure love, they should get a dog.

With a properly framed argument the most devout American out there would burn the Constitution and then weep later.

By the way, we're all taught this behavior on some level and we've all done this on some level. We've knowingly done something that we shouldn't, but we did anyway for whatever reasons.

We all have angels and demons.

 

[JBS]

We can start by asking those fucking jackass morons who confiscated legally owned firearms after Hurricane Katrina. The most worthless law enforcement officers in America were running that outfit and should have their credentials/badges stripped and a boot broken off in their asses. Especially the chief who wanted to be on TV and exclaimed "we will take all guns. No one will have any guns". Blithering idiot. On Youtube for all posterity to see what happens when idiots are in power.


If I recall correctly this is the same department that had MASS DESERTIONS and dozens of their force members caught on tape smashing windows with bricks and they themselves amongst the very first waves of looters. Begs the question if their"right -n- wrong" switch could be flipped so easily during a minor crisis, what kind of shitbags were they while on ordinary duty?

 

[Marine0311]

One of the best posts written on any subject @Freefalling

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Hmmm, generally speaking, I think most LEO's will enforce any law on the books. Meaning if its a law, they will enforce it (its kind of their job). Again "most" not all.

However, I don't feel that LEO's are to blame for enforcement (within reason) of bad laws. I think the law makers are really to blame.

That said, I wouldn't want to be the LEO who decided to enforce that unconstitutional law on someone like me, who.might just decide to say "nope not today, I won't play that game".

Point being, I won't blame LEO's for doing their jobs, at the same time if they are going to do it, they better be ready for that fight (not saying I want or will fight a LEO,nor am I saying anyone else should).

 

[AWP]

An interesting opinion piece from CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/17/opinion/granderson-gun-control-fail/index.html?hpt=hp_t5

And it will keep continue to happen until the advocates accept that ridding the country of guns is a hopeless -- and unconstitutional mission -- and that the real goal should be addressing the factors that lead to the various forms of gun violence: factors such as poverty, mental health and failing schools.

 

[Deleted member 2517]

An interesting opinion piece from CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/17/opinion/granderson-gun-control-fail/index.html?hpt=hp_t5

I like that article. The Navy Yard shooting, Sandy Hook, Colombine, etc. will always happen IMO- they are perpetrated by mentally ill or just plain evil people. The only way to do with them is to "build a bigger pen" and put more money into mental health treatment as well as providing funds for private organizations that provide services and care for the mentally ill. As to mass gang violence, I believe the article is spot on- better schools and better job opportunities will go a long way in stopping gang violence in places like Chicago, Detroit, Augusta- whatever the major crime ridden city.

 

[pardus]

I like that article. The Navy Yard shooting, Sandy Hook, Colombine, etc. will always happen IMO- they are perpetrated by mentally ill or just plain evil people. The only way to do with them is to "build a bigger pen" and put more money into mental health treatment as well as providing funds for private organizations that provide services and care for the mentally ill. As to mass gang violence, I believe the article is spot on- better schools and better job opportunities will go a long way in stopping gang violence in places like Chicago, Detroit, Augusta- whatever the major crime ridden city.

How about communities saying no to criminal behavior? A lot of people grow up in neighborhoods where breaking the law is seen as normal and right.
How about people stop buying gangster music and encouraging a criminal mindset that is corrupting children? How about people stop with the handout/you owe me mentality? That just leads to people becoming angry when they don't get what they are "owed" which just pushes them to the dark side. How about cooperating with police when crime is committed to help stamp crime out?
Do you know why schools in "the hood" are shitty? Because a lot of kids are disobedient, disruptive, disrespectful, violent etc... Good teachers leave, the remaining teachers do what they have to and get the fuck out. The schools are in ruin because the students vandalize the place. School systems can't afford to keep pumping money in to repair the same shit over and over again.

How about people taking responsibility instead of expecting a fucking handout.

 

[Deleted member 2517]

How about communities saying no to criminal behavior? A lot of people grow up in neighborhoods where breaking the law is seen as normal and right.
How about people stop buying gangster music and encouraging a criminal mindset that is corrupting children? How about people stop with the handout/you owe me mentality? That just leads to people becoming angry when they don't get what they are "owed" which just pushes them to the dark side. How about cooperating with police when crime is committed to help stamp crime out?
Do you know why schools in "the hood" are shitty? Because a lot of kids are disobedient, disruptive, disrespectful, violent etc... Good teachers leave, the remaining teachers do what they have to and get the fuck out. The schools are in ruin because the students vandalize the place. School systems can't afford to keep pumping money in to repair the same shit over and over again.

How about people taking responsibility instead of expecting a fucking handout.

I don't disagree. I don't view education or mental health treatment as a hand out- its an investment for long term prosperity and as a way to "fix" high crime, economically depressed areas. The social issues that affect high crime areas are too deep seated to be fixed by the government though, like you said. They may not change things over night, but having a safe place for a kid to get 2-3 meals a day, receive life direction from component guidance counselors, and learn critical thinking skills from teachers who actually care (the biggest issue I've seen in public education)- that's a start.