+1. West Point is ultimately a leadership training academy. We should trust the school to judge these students and determine if they are redeemable.
West Point Accuses 70+ Cadets of Cheating
- Thread starter Ooh-Rah
- Start date
Their penalty for having no honor needs to be somewhat painful so that it leaves a scar for them to remember and learn by. I won't pretend to know what their punishment should be, but it needs to teach them a painful lesson so that it is never forgotten and will hopefully make them better and more productive leaders for the future. Our country may need them in the future and we need to know that we can trust them to lead our Warriors if called upon.
Kraut783
SOF Support
It's time for some good old fashion hazing of cadets again...get some drill sergeants in there and f*ck em up!
This is a response that an Old Grad (West Point) alum is sending to the Superintendent. I don't know the author (we're in some of the same FB groups), although we commissioned the same year, served in a couple of the same places, and both taught at West Point, although he left the year before I arrived.
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Office of the Superintendent
ATTN: LTG Darryl A. Williams
The United States Military Academy
West Point, NY 10996
LTG Williams,
Sir,
“A CADET WILL NOT LIE, CHEAT, STEAL, OR TOLERATE THOSE WHO DO.”
I am a 1995 graduate of The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York. After two tours in Afghanistan (2003-04, and 2006), I returned to West Point to teach in the Department of English & Philosophy from 2008-12.
In the eight years I have spent at West Point, I have never seen the level of unprofessionalism nor the lack of integrity exhibited by the 73 cadets who cheated, nor your level of passivity, timidity, and cowardice.
The tragedy here is: the permanent black eye you have given to West Point—as well as to the Long Grey Line (past, present, and future).
The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York may never recover from your failure to hold fast the standards to which we have sworn regarding honesty, integrity, and personal courage.
USA Today (at https://www.usatoday.com/.../west-point.../4085075001/) noted that:
“In all, 55 of the 73 cadets accused of cheating on a calculus final exam in May are athletes, including 17 who remain on the football team, according to figures released to USA TODAY by West Point.
“A few have played in football games this season after having been accused of cheating. Some of those players could dress and play in the Liberty Bowl on Thursday, according to Army Lt. Col. Christopher Ophardt, a West Point spokesman.
“They're allowed to play because West Point's superintendent in October suspended a policy that limited or prevented cadets found in violation of the academy's honor code from representing the academy in public, including athletes at sports events.”
You failed West Point by allowing cadets to remain in good standing after violating the long-standing, admirable Cadet Honor Code.
That Cadet Honor Code is but one of the key pillars that makes West Point valid and unique.
You failed, Sir, by allowing cadets (cadet athletes) to continue to play--representing West Point, the US Army, and our Constitutional Republic.
I will not live under the illusion that you are clothed, here. In fact, in this case, the emperor (superintendent) wears no clothes.
Shame on you, Sir.
Hold the line.
Hold the standard.
Do the right thing. By West Point.
Do the right thing. By West Point’s Long Grey Line.
I call upon you to strengthen, reimburse, and raise up the Cadet Honor Code, if you can.
If you still have time.
The Long Grey Line is watching you. And we are trying to not weep.
I await your reply,
-----
Office of the Superintendent
ATTN: LTG Darryl A. Williams
The United States Military Academy
West Point, NY 10996
LTG Williams,
Sir,
“A CADET WILL NOT LIE, CHEAT, STEAL, OR TOLERATE THOSE WHO DO.”
I am a 1995 graduate of The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York. After two tours in Afghanistan (2003-04, and 2006), I returned to West Point to teach in the Department of English & Philosophy from 2008-12.
In the eight years I have spent at West Point, I have never seen the level of unprofessionalism nor the lack of integrity exhibited by the 73 cadets who cheated, nor your level of passivity, timidity, and cowardice.
The tragedy here is: the permanent black eye you have given to West Point—as well as to the Long Grey Line (past, present, and future).
The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York may never recover from your failure to hold fast the standards to which we have sworn regarding honesty, integrity, and personal courage.
USA Today (at https://www.usatoday.com/.../west-point.../4085075001/) noted that:
“In all, 55 of the 73 cadets accused of cheating on a calculus final exam in May are athletes, including 17 who remain on the football team, according to figures released to USA TODAY by West Point.
“A few have played in football games this season after having been accused of cheating. Some of those players could dress and play in the Liberty Bowl on Thursday, according to Army Lt. Col. Christopher Ophardt, a West Point spokesman.
“They're allowed to play because West Point's superintendent in October suspended a policy that limited or prevented cadets found in violation of the academy's honor code from representing the academy in public, including athletes at sports events.”
You failed West Point by allowing cadets to remain in good standing after violating the long-standing, admirable Cadet Honor Code.
That Cadet Honor Code is but one of the key pillars that makes West Point valid and unique.
You failed, Sir, by allowing cadets (cadet athletes) to continue to play--representing West Point, the US Army, and our Constitutional Republic.
I will not live under the illusion that you are clothed, here. In fact, in this case, the emperor (superintendent) wears no clothes.
Shame on you, Sir.
Hold the line.
Hold the standard.
Do the right thing. By West Point.
Do the right thing. By West Point’s Long Grey Line.
I call upon you to strengthen, reimburse, and raise up the Cadet Honor Code, if you can.
If you still have time.
The Long Grey Line is watching you. And we are trying to not weep.
I await your reply,
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The above is quoted from my OP.
@Marauder06 , I gotta ask...based on statements and
ETA - my question above could be read like I’m trying to come across as a dick, that is 100% not my intent; I’ve got no right to take a shot at any Service Academy, nor anyone who has attended one. But based on the letter that Mara posted, it now seems like a fair question to ask.
Yes, I still think it likely that it was either a misquote or an incomplete quote. However, that is my opinion only. AFAIK I've never even met the Chief of Staff and no one else (again, AFAIK) is making this claim.
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ThunderHorse
Verified Military
I can generally understand the idea of the Willful admissions process when a cadet acts alone in something and is caught. However, this was a straight up cheating ring. Boot them, make the example, move forward.
Makes me wonder what the punishment would’ve been if none of them had been on the football team.
Lets not forget these are still a bunch of college kids with emotions, impulses, desires, etc - the school is perfectly capable of making the right call.
More on this issue:
West Point & Critical Race Theory
West Point & Critical Race Theory
Lots to unpack in that article, and the ones it links to.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Ok, I got beef with the Supe. I did not know that he had suspended the policy that stopped cadet-athletes from representing the school while in Honor Code proceedings. The rest of it I'm starting to read.
You're right, they're college kids...but kids who know damn well they're getting a free education in one of the most prestigious institutions in the country, with a long established, legendary honor code that they are fully aware of.
To me it's a character issue and possibly a parental issue as well.
Honor used to mean a lot more than it does now.
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If he was a LCpl lying to you would you think it was a no-harm no foul event?
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Cheating happens all the way down in Middle School. To give you an idea of what occurred while I was at VMI when it came to honor code violations and trials on a yearly basis.
Around 20 cadets were dismissed per year for Honor violations. Not all of them were for cheating. In less than a Calendar year I served on three juries while at VMI, Spring 2010 and Fall 2010. Many cadets who are accused of cheating often withdraw from school, these cases take the longest to adjudicate once in the trial process. Lying and Stealing are pretty swift trials once they hit the trial process, however usually take the longest to investigate, lying usually requires multiple instances of lying, unless it is to a professor.
Of the three cases that I sat the jury on, if I recall this correctly, all three cadets were accused of lying. One of the cadets had withdrawn from school in the fall when he was arrested by the Honor Court with the intention to fight his case, he would be declared not guilty by a jury of his peers and returned to the Institute in the Fall of 2010. I would say about 40% of Honor Violations cases at VMI are either declared not guilty or the verdict doesn't get certified by the Superintendent and that Cadet has the opportunity to return to the Corps.
VMI's Corps of Cadets is roughly 1/3 the size of a Federal Service Academy.
Believe me I dig it and have the utmost respect for tradition & lineage but honor is handed down in a forge not a delivery room.
Of course not. I dont think this situation at west point is a no harm/foul either Im just saying some of these reactions coming out of the woods come off a little theatrical.
Another perspective on this issue, this time featured in Salon:
Another scandal at West Point: Where secrecy comes before honor
Another scandal at West Point: Where secrecy comes before honor
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Not to make this a comparison. But what is the size of the "Honor Committee" at West Point. VMI has an Honor Court. There are 12 members.
President, two vice presidents, and three prosecutors whom are all first classmen. Then there are six assistant prosecutors whom are all second classmen. Then cadets from the top three classes are all in the computer to be selected via lottery for the jury pool. The Jury Pool is then whittled down to 7 in the same way a standard jury is by the Prosecution and Defense.
The accused have the right to choose their own defense counsel, I never saw a Faculty member actually act as defense counsel, but there faculty advisors for both defense and prosecution. The Prosecution of course are cadets. In my experience as a jury member I always saw private counsel retained. In fact there are boutique law firms that specialize in Honor Trial defense in the state of Virginia.
I know at the Citadel, their court is run differently. They have about 40 cadets on the court, they have a president and prosecutors and then of the 40 cadets on the court, 30 are basically professional jurors for lack of a better term.
I would say that 12 members of VMI's court, the school is basically at the max right now, if the school somehow ended up admitting another 2-300 rats which would be impossible without building another barracks block, the size of the court would need to be increased to handle the case load.
So if anything, West Point may need an Honor Court per regiment to effectively deal with this if it remains a cadet run program.
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