West Point Cadets O.D. on Crack & Fentanyl

[TLDR20]

“Two of the cadets had not ingested the drugs but were overcome by the effects of fentanyl when they attempted to perform mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on their sickened friends,”

Riiight….

Yeah that isn’t how fentanyl works. Those kids were also doing the drugs.

I'd like to know how they got through all screening to get that student appointment to West Point to begin with. I doubt their drug use just suddenly started after they got to West Point. Maybe they should just close all the Military service academies? BTW: The West Point Football roster lists 99, six and potentially 8, is 16-20 percent of that roster. I wonder if the investigation will cause the drug use to cause a greater percent impact on the remaining 93?

Check it out, (some)drugs are fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to have fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to push the rules. Kids fuck up and push the rules too far sometimes. If you think our ROTC and OCS kids weren’t out pounding beers, smoking drugs and doing other bad shit I got some unicorns to sell you.

College is for growing up and making some mistakes. I feel bad these kids ruined both their lives and their future careers. I can empathize with making a few bad choices, having it effect your life and moving passed it. Unfortunately we live in a zero defect situation and these kids will reap what they sowed, which was probably a poor drunken decision.

I personally wouldn’t want some virgin nerd do-gooder leading me

 

[pardus]

Yeah I almost guarantee they were all drunk as shit when this happened.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

College is for growing up and making some mistakes. I feel bad these kids ruined both their lives and their future careers. I can empathize with making a few bad choices, having it effect your life and moving passed it. Unfortunately we live in a zero defect situation and these kids will reap what they sowed, which was probably a poor drunken decision.

Disclaimer - I’ve not applied to or attended any of the service academies.

I think TV and movies give a false expectation of West Point, Annapolis type students; Taps, Officer and a Gentlemen Included. These are still 18-twenty-something kids faced with the same curiosities and peer-pressure as any other college kid; only in their cases, the expectation for success is on overdrive and bad judgement calls or mistakes and significantly more impactful to their futures.

In some ways I think that the collective, “we” hold them to a higher standard than they could ever hope to meet

 

[TLDR20]

Disclaimer - I’ve not applied to or attended any of the service academies.

I think TV and movies give a false expectation of West Point, Annapolis type students; Taps, Officer and a Gentlemen Included. These are still 18-twenty-something kids faced with the same curiosities and peer-pressure as any other college kid; only in their cases, the expectation for success is on overdrive and bad judgement calls or mistakes and significantly more impactful to their futures.

In some ways I think that the collective, “we” hold them to a higher standard than they could ever hope to meet

Yeah and that’s not fair.

 

[“The Old Man”]

 

[Dimethylamine]

How, could they test + for THC metabolites by smoking CBD cannabis?
I would venture they knew what they were smoking.
OTC CBD cannabis is so low in THC. It is undetectable on a 10 panel screen.

They really can't. CBD and THC are two different molecules and two different metabolites. The DoD test is like 5 ng (or 15 ng) which is basically about a joint or so. The CDR was just doing his due diligence.

Before someone asks me, "Why would you know that, seems like something a GUILTY person would know!" I was a chemist before getting serious in the military.

 

[Dimethylamine]

Yeah that isn’t how fentanyl works. Those kids were also doing the drugs.


Check it out, (some)drugs are fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to have fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to push the rules. Kids fuck up and push the rules too far sometimes. If you think our ROTC and OCS kids weren’t out pounding beers, smoking drugs and doing other bad shit I got some unicorns to sell you.

College is for growing up and making some mistakes. I feel bad these kids ruined both their lives and their future careers. I can empathize with making a few bad choices, having it effect your life and moving passed it. Unfortunately we live in a zero defect situation and these kids will reap what they sowed, which was probably a poor drunken decision.

I personally wouldn’t want some virgin nerd do-gooder leading me

I agree. This is also why I did OCS. I won't say I was a party animal in college, but I wasn't a Boy Scout either. People need SOME wiggle room to make mistakes and learn from them. The do-gooders I've worked with at least, down the line ended up being too by the book and not well liked by their NCOs.

I caught my extra duty guys sneak off post and I punished them accordingly. A couple of days later, I smelled alcohol on their breath (if you're on extra duty where we were at, alcohol was definitely a no go), but couldn't prove any shenanigans other than they just seemed hungover, and they stayed in their barracks, out of sight and out of mind after hours, so I didn't look any further.

Some could say I let that slide, but I still felt I punished when appropriate. If anyone disagrees with me, I want to know why, because I've been told a time or two that I need to be tougher on my dudes.

 

[pardus]

I agree. I caught my extra duty guys sneak off post and I punished them accordingly. A couple of days later, I smelled alcohol on their breath (if you're on extra duty where we were at, alcohol was definitely a no go), but couldn't prove any shenanigans other than they just seemed hungover, and they stayed in their barracks, out of sight and out of mind after hours, so I didn't look any further.

Some could say I let that slide, but I still felt I punished when appropriate. If anyone disagrees with me, I want to know why, because I've been told a time or two that I need to be tougher on my dudes.

Black and white doesn't exist, even though military regs would suggest otherwise. You have to use your judgement and consider all the factors in play, rather than blindly follow the regs. Those that scream that you must follow the regs exactly, are guilty of violations of those regs themselves, I guarantee you. NO ONE is infallible.

 

[Dimethylamine]

Black and white doesn't exist, even though military regs would suggest otherwise. You have to use your judgement and consider all the factors in play, rather than blindly follow the regs. Those that scream that you must follow the regs exactly, are guilty of violations of those regs themselves, I guarantee you. NO ONE is infallible.

I wish more people would realize this. Whenever do-gooders say I'm breaking the rules, albeit a small one (such as being 1 minute late to curfew or having another beer when it's a "two drink limit at events"), I can't reason with them. Logically, I am in the wrong.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Yeah that isn’t how fentanyl works. Those kids were also doing the drugs.


Check it out, (some)drugs are fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to have fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to push the rules. Kids fuck up and push the rules too far sometimes. If you think our ROTC and OCS kids weren’t out pounding beers, smoking drugs and doing other bad shit I got some unicorns to sell you.

College is for growing up and making some mistakes. I feel bad these kids ruined both their lives and their future careers. I can empathize with making a few bad choices, having it effect your life and moving passed it. Unfortunately we live in a zero defect situation and these kids will reap what they sowed, which was probably a poor drunken decision.

I personally wouldn’t want some virgin nerd do-gooder leading me

I attended a college that held a single sanction honor system, in fact the only one left in this country. It continuously tends to come under attack.

Drug use, and illicit drug use should be delt with rapidly leading to full discharge. Yeah, I fucked up plenty. But none of my fuck ups were crimes either. The idea that they're "kids" is also not true. All of them reached the age of majority, all of them understood what they were doing was wrong.

Also...you can't just go get Fentanyl down at CVS. You have to go find it. They're definitely idiots.

ETA-
It's hilarious that we as a society look down upon people who seek to be "do gooders" and use that as a pejorative. Not sure what the issue with holding them to account to the damned letter of the UCMJ and even sending some to prison. The standards you set are those that you tolerate.

Yeah, we're in a zero defect Army now and most of the people that rise in fact are horrible people that you'd never want near you in civil life. But generally, you should always seek to "Do Good" as a person.

 

[Grunt]

Those students, clowns, whatever one chooses to call them are from the same society that we are all from and they certainly aren't immune to being the same idiots that go to *civilian" schools. The thing that aggravates me the most is that I as a taxpayer are paying for them to go there. They should do their best to honor the agreement they made in order to attend that school. As to them being any better than anyone else their age - nah, that just isn't so.

 

[Totentanz]

Black and white doesn't exist, even though military regs would suggest otherwise. You have to use your judgement and consider all the factors in play, rather than blindly follow the regs. Those that scream that you must follow the regs exactly, are guilty of violations of those regs themselves, I guarantee you. NO ONE is infallible.

One of the biggest lessons I learned on this forum many years back, expressed by @Marauder06, is that zero tolerance is a crap policy and leaders who use it (and other absolutes) aren't fully doing their jobs - specifically, that inflexible policies leave no room for the individual evaluation that the situations deserve. Oftentimes, leaders have to have the balls to say "I've evaluated the situation and I've decided X" and assume personal responsibility.

 

[TLDR20]

I attended a college that held a single sanction honor system, in fact the only one left in this country. It continuously tends to come under attack.

Drug use, and illicit drug use should be delt with rapidly leading to full discharge. Yeah, I fucked up plenty. But none of my fuck ups were crimes either. The idea that they're "kids" is also not true. All of them reached the age of majority, all of them understood what they were doing was wrong.

Also...you can't just go get Fentanyl down at CVS. You have to go find it. They're definitely idiots.

ETA-
It's hilarious that we as a society look down upon people who seek to be "do gooders" and use that as a pejorative. Not sure what the issue with holding them to account to the damned letter of the UCMJ and even sending some to prison. The standards you set are those that you tolerate.

Yeah, we're in a zero defect Army now and most of the people that rise in fact are horrible people that you'd never want near you in civil life. But generally, you should always seek to "Do Good" as a person.

Your post highlights you lack of understanding of drugs, and your lack of empathy in general.

For drugs, fentanyl is routinely used to cut differing drugs. Cocaine is cut with fentanyl because it is cheap and it gives people a different high. They almost for sure did not know it was cut with fentanyl.

Honestly I’d rather have an officer and teammates who had a variety of experiences, ranging from the pristine to the borderline felonious.

I don’t want some military academy virgin nerd who pontificates about how it was at VMI or the Point, while he sips a mich ultra.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Cool. We both expect and tolerate different things.

 

[Grunt]

Your post highlights you lack of understanding of drugs, and your lack of empathy in general.

For drugs, fentanyl is routinely used to cut differing drugs. Cocaine is cut with fentanyl because it is cheap and it gives people a different high. They almost for sure did not know it was cut with fentanyl.

Honestly I’d rather have an officer and teammates who had a variety of experiences, ranging from the pristine to the borderline felonious.

I don’t want some military academy virgin nerd who pontificates about how it was at VMI or the Point, while he sips a mich ultra.

I can buy that, but I don't necessarily want a cocaine shooting/sniffing guy being a leader until they have been proven to have been clean for a good long time.

 

[Kaldak]

I agree with you, to an extent @TLDR20 . I don't think they need to partake in the illicit activity to understand it. I've lost close friends to overdoses. I don't need to indulge to understand. I'd also hope I'm not seen as a vigin nerd for not partaking.

 

[TLDR20]

I can buy that, but I don't necessarily want a cocaine shooting/sniffing guy being a leader until they have been proven to have been clean for a good long time.

I agree with you, to an extent @TLDR20 . I don't think they need to partake in the illicit activity to understand it. I've lost close friends to overdoses. I don't need to indulge to understand. I'd also hope I'm not seen as a vigin nerd for not partaking.

Yeah. You guys mean you don’t want 18-20 year olds who are still mistake prone leading you until they have grown up an out of their immaturity? That is what college is for….

These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?

 

[TLDR20]

Those students, clowns, whatever one chooses to call them are from the same society that we are all from and they certainly aren't immune to being the same idiots that go to *civilian" schools. The thing that aggravates me the most is that I as a taxpayer are paying for them to go there. They should do their best to honor the agreement they made in order to attend that school. As to them being any better than anyone else their age - nah, that just isn't so.

Now this is a fair argument. I think it is a great argument against the academies in general. Though, I personally think the academies are awesome, but I think we need to hold our young studs to some normal ish college standards.

 

[Grunt]

These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?

Sure I do, but after wearing a badge for 30 years and making enough death notifications based on those types of activities, it usually isn't a one-time event for a hot girl...and no, I never did a line of coke to impress anyone. I don't give blanket tacit approval for *everything* based on being young and dumb.

 

[Kaldak]

Yeah. You guys mean you don’t want 18-20 year olds who are still mistake prone leading you until they have grown up an out of their immaturity? That is what college is for….

These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?

I do.

I never did coke. Much less heroin or any other opioid.

Beer and booze, yes.