West Point Cadets O.D. on Crack & Fentanyl

[Totentanz]

I do.

I never did coke. Much less heroin or any other opioid.

Beer and booze, yes.

Same. I had some friends with much less restraint that I... very few who were doing coke (even irregularly).

 

[TLDR20]

Sure I do, but after wearing a badge for 30 years and making enough death notifications based on those types of activities, it usually isn't a once event from a hot girl...and no, I never did a line of coke for a hot girl. I don't give blanket tacit approval for *everything* based on being young and dumb.

Nor did I. I don’t condone what they did, but mistakes are mistakes. They will pay for it forever. Kids are gonna make mistakes. These kids are paying for it. My point is they are doing what kids do. They weren’t shooting heroin, they got some bad drugs and paid for it severely.

 

[pardus]

I attended a college that held a single sanction honor system, in fact the only one left in this country. It continuously tends to come under attack.

Drug use, and illicit drug use should be delt with rapidly leading to full discharge. Yeah, I fucked up plenty. But none of my fuck ups were crimes either. The idea that they're "kids" is also not true. All of them reached the age of majority, all of them understood what they were doing was wrong.

Also...you can't just go get Fentanyl down at CVS. You have to go find it. They're definitely idiots.

ETA-
It's hilarious that we as a society look down upon people who seek to be "do gooders" and use that as a pejorative. Not sure what the issue with holding them to account to the damned letter of the UCMJ and even sending some to prison. The standards you set are those that you tolerate.

Yeah, we're in a zero defect Army now and most of the people that rise in fact are horrible people that you'd never want near you in civil life. But generally, you should always seek to "Do Good" as a person.

I'll try and hit this in chronological order.
Enlisted guys are on an automatic track of discharge unless the CDR steps up for them (I know you know this, this is for the general audience), and I do agree that Officers should be held to a higher standard. However I have thought since going to the US that the powers that be are obsessed with cookie cutter perfection and it is a deeply flawed concept. This concept sets the tone from the start, and as we all know, you cannot build a solid structure without a solid foundation.
So you admit that you've fucked up, good, everyone has, were you given breaks from bosses for those indiscretions? Glass houses and all that.
I'm am quite sure that the idiot the bought the coke had no idea that it was laced with fentanyl. The person who sold it possibly didn't even know. Fentanyl is coming in boatloads from China ((probably other places too) 1 Ton of Fentanyl was seized by the NYPD in 2021 for example).
Have a deep think about all of the times you have broken by action or inaction to the "damned letter" of the UCMJ.
One should always strive to do the right thing as a person and particularly as a military member where your actions have massive impacts on people's lives, generally for the worst.
IMHO, Everyone involved and the entire situation needs to be thoroughly investigated, and anyone directly responsible for the deaths should face the appropriate adverse actions, but going full Virgin Mary puritan on them will do one thing, punish them, and this will happen again next year, and the year after, ad infinitum. I'm pretty sure the Army will do it's normal thing, discharge a couple, bust a couple, enforce more mandatory briefings, tighten the screws on cadet's freedoms, but it will do no good. The Army/Military is too inflexible to enact any real change.
I'm sure we'll strive forward with diversity training though, Trans Soldiers and pronouns Hooah!

 

[TLDR20]

I do.

I never did coke. Much less heroin or any other opioid.

Beer and booze, yes.

This was accidental opioid ingestion almost for sure.

I'll try and hit this in chronological order.
Enlisted guys are on an automatic track of discharge unless the CDR steps up for them (I know you know this, this is for the general audience), and I do agree that Officers should be held to a higher standard. However I have thought since going to the US that the powers that be are obsessed with cookie cutter perfection and it is a deeply flawed concept. This concept sets the tone from the start, and as we all know, you cannot build a solid structure without a solid foundation.
So you admit that you've fucked up, good, everyone has, were you given breaks from bosses for those indiscretions? Glass houses and all that.
I'm am quite sure that the idiot the bought the coke had no idea that it was laced with fentanyl. The person who sold it possibly didn't even know. Fentanyl is coming in boatloads from China ((probably other places too) 1 Ton of Fentanyl was seized by the NYPD in 2021 for example).
Have a deep think about all of the times you have broken by action or inaction to the "damned letter" of the UCMJ.
One should always strive to do the right thing as a person and particularly as a military member where your actions have massive impacts on people's lives, generally for the worst.
IMHO, Everyone involved and the entire situation needs to be thoroughly investigated, and anyone directly responsible for the deaths should face the appropriate adverse actions, but going full Virgin Mary puritan on them will do one thing, punish them, and this will happen again next year, and the year after, ad infinitum. I'm pretty sure the Army will do it's normal thing, discharge a couple, bust a couple, enforce more mandatory briefings, tighten the screws on cadet's freedoms, but it will do no good. The Army/Military is too inflexible to enact any real change.
I'm sure we'll strive forward with diversity training though, Trans Soldiers and pronouns Hooah!

This^

 

[Topkick]

In some ways I think that the collective, “we” hold them to a higher standard than they could ever hope to meet

Not everyone gets a trophy. I would not advocate ruining their lives... but maybe tough love means you had one shot at it and now you don't get to graduate from West Point. You go somewhere else and start over. There are so many quality kids who dont get a shot because they didnt get the break they needed.

 

[ThunderHorse]

I'll try and hit this in chronological order.
Enlisted guys are on an automatic track of discharge unless the CDR steps up for them (I know you know this, this is for the general audience), and I do agree that Officers should be held to a higher standard. However I have thought since going to the US that the powers that be are obsessed with cookie cutter perfection and it is a deeply flawed concept. This concept sets the tone from the start, and as we all know, you cannot build a solid structure without a solid foundation.
So you admit that you've fucked up, good, everyone has, were you given breaks from bosses for those indiscretions? Glass houses and all that.
I'm am quite sure that the idiot the bought the coke had no idea that it was laced with fentanyl. The person who sold it possibly didn't even know. Fentanyl is coming in boatloads from China ((probably other places too) 1 Ton of Fentanyl was seized by the NYPD in 2021 for example).
Have a deep think about all of the times you have broken by action or inaction to the "damned letter" of the UCMJ.
One should always strive to do the right thing as a person and particularly as a military member where your actions have massive impacts on people's lives, generally for the worst.
IMHO, Everyone involved and the entire situation needs to be thoroughly investigated, and anyone directly responsible for the deaths should face the appropriate adverse actions, but going full Virgin Mary puritan on them will do one thing, punish them, and this will happen again next year, and the year after, ad infinitum. I'm pretty sure the Army will do it's normal thing, discharge a couple, bust a couple, enforce more mandatory briefings, tighten the screws on cadet's freedoms, but it will do no good. The Army/Military is too inflexible to enact any real change.
I'm sure we'll strive forward with diversity training though, Trans Soldiers and pronouns Hooah!

When it comes to illicit drug use I have a hard line from personal experience, and not from use. Don't need to get into, but got the phone call a few too many times whether it was to bury a friend or soldier of mine that was a closet addict. We can say that this is the time for someone to make mistakes, I can totally buy that, but those mistakes don't have to involve cocaine, heroine, fentanyl, or getting the behind the wheel and committing felony DUI.

 

[TLDR20]

I will also add, in case it isn’t clear, I personally find the use of hard drugs reprehensible. I find cocaine use by SMs particularly infuriating as I participated directly in the “war” on that drug.

While in I knew dudes that used certain drugs and didn’t think it was cool then, nor do I find hard drug use cool now.

College kids, doing drugs? I feel bad that this happened. Am I naive enough to think that it is abnormal behavior, or an aberration? No.

 

[“The Old Man”]

Yeah. You guys mean you don’t want 18-20 year olds who are still mistake prone leading you until they have grown up an out of their immaturity? That is what college is for….

These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?

I went in the Army 1979 at the age of 17. I was stationed in a small town, Frederick MD.
The sister college to Annapolis is there, Hood college. It is an all female college. It was th 80’s. So I can completely understand your POV. As I did not even come close to an ARCOM for a minute.
Unfortunately, I do not understand myself. Why there is so little room to redeem one’s self. From any ghost’s of their past’s.
Seems to me that. We should take EVERYONE on an Individual basis. Whether it be to chastise/punish or, lift up/commend.
I had a serious alcoholic for a Senior Drill at Jackson, in C-2-9. The 4 of us squad leaders in 1st platoon got woke up around 0300 one morning. Whereupon we were locked into his squad bay quarters. Then ordered to drink a gallon of Mogen & David table wine. Never ever saw him again. We were put under investigation for the rest of the cycle. Finally our Battalion CO. Found us not responsible for any of the actions that night. When he could have ended our very short military careers. We had been in boot a total of 6 weeks.

 

[Topkick]

Am I naive enough to think that it is abnormal behavior, or an aberration? No.

True. But as you know, elite doesn't happen without a "weeding out"

 

[pardus]

When it comes to illicit drug use I have a hard line from personal experience, and not from use. Don't need to get into, but got the phone call a few too many times whether it was to bury a friend or soldier of mine that was a closet addict. We can say that this is the time for someone to make mistakes, I can totally buy that, but those mistakes don't have to involve cocaine, heroine, fentanyl, or getting the behind the wheel and committing felony DUI.

For sure, but let me ask, have you EVER driven at least buzzed? I know I have.
I'm known as a tough, no bullshit NCO, who doesn't tolerate BS. I have publicly berated and yelled at Officers (no higher than CPTs though lol) when I thought it was appropriate. Ive been around enough to know by experience (sorry knees, back, shoulders and brain) when to do the yelling and apparent apoplectic rage (I would often give a wink the NCOs etc... while doing so which amused them to no end) , and when to quietly pull someone aside and speak as a human being, no rank on subjects that required it. I was fortunate to have had my formative years in a Commonwealth Army which has a different mindset in these matters, and close to 20 years as an NCO, to allow me to judge the best path to given situations. My way is not the best way nor the only way, but it is a way, but a way now seen as unacceptable by the US Army.
I would encourage all to read autobiographies and biographies on famous military members and the fuck ups they had but moved past them.

I will just leave this here...

Medal of Honor: Peter Lemon was high on marijuana, he single-handedly fought off two waves of Vietcong

 

[AWP]

South Florida wouldn’t exist if the coke from the 70’s and 80’s was cut with Fentanyl.

Fentanyl’s ubiquity makes doing some drugs today an absolute crap shoot. If those cadets are guilty of anything it is a failure to pay attention to current events. They are lucky to be alive.

 

[RackMaster]

It's no different than the morons that think any drug, especially marijuana from their friendly neighbourhood drug dealer; are not laced with fentanyl. Everything is now, especially with the cartels behind supply.

 

[TLDR20]

It's no different than the morons that think any drug, especially marijuana from their friendly neighbourhood drug dealer; are not laced with fentanyl. Everything is now, especially with the cartels behind supply.

Marijuana laced with Fentanyl? I hadn’t heard of that yet. One more reason to legalize marijuana and reduce the influence that cartels can exert.

I found this piece relating to a case where fentanyl laced marijuana was found. Should we fear fentanyl-laced marijuana? - The Boston Globe

Bottom line, don’t do drugs if you aren’t supposed to. If you are legally allowed, buy it from a legal source.

Also cops(or other first responders) don’t OD on fentanyl from contact…. That is a myth that absolutely refuses to die.

 

[Grunt]

People need hobbies - not drugs. They need mentors where parents are gone or inept - not drugs. Drugs are as old as time, but they are out of control now. Lives are being wasted along with careers. People need to step up to the plate and fix the issue.

 

[RackMaster]

Legal cannabis products are expensive because the government has it's sticky fingers in it. There was a woman that died last year. I should add that edibles and vape products are becoming the products of choice. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...yl-pot-weed-cannabis-overdose-death-1.5930316

 

[AWP]

Shameless plug for AWP Brown Sugar. I source the best sugar cane and only produce it in an environmentally friendly, sustainable way in Helmand province. I give back to the community too, where 98% of my staff are from the community but most importantly I only hire veterans. I guarantee the purity of my sugar and you can count on reliable delivery times, because that is also in house. We do not have a supply chain bottleneck and most importantly in these troubled times, I refuse to raise the cost of my sugar due to inflation.

For your baking needs, choose AWP brand brown sugar. So good, I’ll make you a customer for life. Guaranteed.

 

[Chopstick]

Same here in PA regarding medical marijuana @RackMaster . When I was working in pain management my particular clinic did not co-prescribe to patients on medical marijuana. Patients would also have the expectation that our practioners would sign off on their applications to the State but that was not the case. Patients also would be shocked to find that the process to apply was all out of pocket and that the products are not covered by their insurance plans. They are also surprised to find out that although medical marijuana is legal in PA provided the patient qualifies, it is still illegal at the Federal level and would cause gun ownership issues. It's a huge can of worms with the Commonwealth coming out on top financially. So, many people just end up using the good old corner dealer. :/
Medical Marijuana Patient and Caregiver Resources

 

[TLDR20]

Legal cannabis products are expensive because the government has it's sticky fingers in it. There was a woman that died last year. I should add that edibles and vape products are becoming the products of choice. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...yl-pot-weed-cannabis-overdose-death-1.5930316

We are quickly getting off track, but I’m interested in this topic, and in my current role and scope know a metric shit ton about opiates.

 

[Chopstick]

They apparently have the dealer. https://www.winknews.com/2022/03/12/arrest-in-fentanyl-overdoses-of-west-point-cadets-in-florida/

Police have confirmed they have made an arrest in the overdosing of college students who ingested cocaine laced with fentanyl in Wilton Manors.


Police identified Axel Giovany Casseus, 21, as the person who sold the spring breakers the drugs.


He appeared in bond court on Saturday morning.

Maybe it's just a 'burgh thing but it seems in our parts there are constant incidents of marijuana being laced with fentanyl. This was in the headlines just a year ago here. Washington County Reporting Alarming Increase In Fatal Overdoses, Experts Blame Fentanyl-Laced Drugs

But recently there have been problems with this in particular in Connecticut as well. In a middle school and a high school. Student, 16, overdoses on suspected fentanyl-laced marijuana at Connecticut high school, police say

Just say 'no", kids.

 

[Marauder06]

I started a thread for discussing illegal drugs, I had some questions and didn't want to derail this thread.

Since this is an ongoing situation I'm not going to comment directly on this case or what I think should happen to the people involved. I'll also add that I don't know any more than anyone else reading the news and I won't be involved in any of the command decisions that result from the investigation that is going to take place over this incident. I do have some other thoughts though, and I'll probably make a couple of different posts about it.

First: In cases like this, some people tend to jump on the "bash the Academies" bandwagon. Part of that is because this is soooo far out of the norm. There are 4,000+ cadets at West Point, and most of them toe the line most of the time. I've seen the headlines about the 6 (or whatever number it is now) cadets. You know what you're NOT going to see, ever? A headline that reads "3,994 cadets do the right thing 364 days a year." Every organization has its bad actors, including the Special Operations community, who by the way has its own struggles with drug issues. I'd be curious to know if we did a random sample of 4,000 active-duty Soldiers (West Point cadets are active duty and subject to UCMJ) in a similar age demographic (17-27) and counted the annual drug busts per capita, if West Point's would be higher or lower. My sense is that the Academy's rate would be significantly lower. I'll also re-iterate something I've said many times: first reports are almost always wrong, and it's wise to wait for the whole story to come out before racing to extreme recommendations like "shut down West Point!" I do think that there are legitimate arguments for doing away with the Service Academies, but this particular incident, in isolation, probably isn't one of them. .

Second: In general, the "they're just kids" argument doesn't hold up for me. To begin with, West Point cadets are not "kids." With the very limited exception of cadets who enroll while they're still 17, every single one of them is a legal adult, bound by UCMJ. West Point invests an extraordinary amount of time training cadets in character, military discipline, and the bounds of legal and moral behavior. If adults make adult decisions, then they get to live with the adult consequences. Drug abuse is so beyond the pale of acceptable behavior not only at West Point but in the Army that severe consequences are warranted. It calls into question character and decision-making as well as organizational and individual trust, which in turn questions one's ability to serve as an Army officer. You want to "be like other college 'kids'" and do a bunch of drugs in your late teens and early 20s? OK then, but do it somewhere other than West Point. After serving on the Admissions Committee, I can guarantee there are probably 3-5 other fully qualified candidates who could have taken your slot and would probably NOT have ruined it over illegal drugs.

Third: Rules following. I have been in the Army almost 27 years. Over that time I have become more and more tolerant of human failings, which I guess some people would call "less by-the-book." However, I also know that if you let enough little things slide over time, they become big things. The most extreme example is portrayed in the book Black Hearts, which I encourage all of you to read if you haven't already. I still punish people when they deserve it, but I now do so unemotionally and don't take it personally. We have a lot of rules in our Army, and a lot of people who break them. Not everyone needs their nuts crushed over every little thing. But if you nip the little things in the bud, they don't bloom into a big problem for everyone later. It's a delicate balance.

I have also found that in many cases, leaders don't enforce rules because they are lazy, or they are scared, or they lack the courage to risk disapproval of the people they lead. This isn't always the case, of course. But when I find out a subordinate leader has not been enforcing rules, I look at why. Was it for their troops, or was it for themselves? Did you decide to PT the crap out of your private for breaking curfew instead of reporting him to me for a summarized Article 15 (the CG-directed punishment when I was in 2ID) because you were trying to help the Soldier, or are you trying to sweep it under the rug? Worse yet, are YOU the one coming in late, thinking that the rules don't apply to you? If I can't trust you with little shit, how can I trust you with big issues?

Fourth: I believe in redemption and second chances. I also believe that all of life is developmental, and especially in one's late teens and early 20s. That's why I was very supportive of West Point's move away from an attritional model--especially when it comes to character/moral issues--to a developmental one. But egregious violations of norms and standards, especially when they are widely known, need timely, substantial, and publicly-known punishments. West Point has several sanctions available for major violations, including complete expulsion, "roll back" to a later graduating class (trust me, this is a much bigger deal to cadets than it might seem), to "Army Mentorship," where cadets serve time as a non-promotable spec-4 in an active duty unit. In many of those cases, cadets can re-apply if they choose, and some of those who re-apply are re-admitted. But the punishment has to happen as part of the growth and developmental process. I've had second chances in my life. There are plenty of people on this site who got kicked off and were allowed back with a second chance and reintegrated just fine. Others went right back to their old ways and were kicked off a second, permanent time. Same things with West Point cadets.

Fifth (and this will be the last thought for this post): the argument that "everyone does it" or "what did you do when you were young" doesn't hold water. No, not everyone does illegal drugs. Yes, everyone at West Point knows that doing illegal drugs, even once, will probably get you punted. If they do that anyway, it's on them. And there are probably a thousand West Point cadets, and tens of thousands of other college students who graduate every year in the US, who manage to go their entire college careers without taking drugs. I did. One of the main reasons I did was because I knew if I didn't stay drug-free, that would affect my ability to stay in school and to join the Army. Other people have different opinions and made different choices. Again, now that I'm older I understand it better, but as I believe in redemption and second changes and are more tolerant of all types of failure in both others and myself, I also believe in agency and accountability. If you do it, you live with the consequences.