Whats your backup plan?

[amlove21]

Tropicana98- no issue here. I just want to keep the thread on track, thats all. I want people to think about the possible consequences and realize that sometimes, things happen that affect the plan. And you need to consider those things, thats all. nothing personal intended at you, or anyone for that matter.

The "die rather than quit" thing I get. Really, I do. But too many use that as a cop out- because when they aren't in the program, and they aren't dead, things get disorienting.

And please, don't call me sir. Aaron, LX, or Love is fine. And you don't owe me pushups. That's not the point of this thread. As a matter of fact, that's not how I operate in person, either.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?
Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?

lol, if I did not make the 'cut' I would take my ass back to the conventional Army (Infantry) and continue to be the best I can be there, try the SOF side down the road again if possible. Most defiantly would not be the end of the road for me and would not destroy me/disgruntle me.

 

[Johca]

Awesome stats- where was that from? Although I was extremely surprised that only 1% were eliminated from training for physical injury, I had assumed it would be higher than that.

The Stat came from an official study done by USAF last year and my query with experienced others in Army, Navy and Coast Guard stated injuries were seldom a cause for set back or elimination from training. Thus the presumption is if medical records of all eliminated from training and setbacks in training were scrutinized as thoroughly as the Air Force did for its study (PJ/CCT/TACP) and if the documents generated to cause a setback in training or an elimination from training were scrutinized as the Air Force did, it is reasonably presumed the 1% is what would be found.

I pretty much have a not-official request that is honored that I be forwarded attrition studies as I have strong desire and interest in this area. I do not know how longer this will continued because the young pups I worked with are now the senior and chief functional managers and are getting towards age and 20-30 year HYT retirement years in service. I did a lot of joint operations during my years of active duty service so the people I talk to are reliable subject matter experts on matters of their military occupation (MOS, NEC/Rate, AFSC).

I got an interest in these attrition matters beginning in 1989 when in a staff officer position on HQ MAC subsequently HQ AMC operations staff. It continued in 1993/4 when I held Chief of Pararescue Operations on HQ ACC Surgeons staff.

In 1990 the US Coast Guard officially approached HQ AMC as to whether two PAST standards should be established for it Helicopter Rescue Swimmer program, one for male gender and one for female gender. The official reply back was only one standard is appropriate and that it is the typical duties performed in the typical operations environment that must determine the standard regardless of gender.

During 1992 and 1993 I was part of the Pararescue functional Manger effort working issues that would result in April 1993 “removal of combat aviation exclusion” policy that opened all career fields except pararescue and CCT to women, since then TACP and SOW were added primarily because their original staff work was sloppy, they hung their hat on all support the Army duty positions as being tactical ground combat duty positions when some were linked to field HQ staff doing joint coordination.

I took a capabilities system approach addressing unit combat readiness and personal readiness operations suitability approach. It included occupational health issue, leadership education and development issues, affordability issues, availability issues, dependability issues, operations environment issues, fatigue issues, interoperability issues across all military operations, manpower issues, mission reliability issues, operational availability (team being available when required) and operational effectiveness (overall ability of the team to accomplish a mission based on represented typical team composition).

The simple explanation is every operations standard a military military member is held to is capability and mission need driven. These mission need capability based standards are not the same for every military occupation or even the same at every unit (tactical vs support unit cpability an example and duty postion of a nmilitary classification existing in both).

For the Air Force this results in the screening PAST used by he Air Force recruiting service to differ for PJ (1T2X1) CCT (1C2X1) SOWT (1W0X2) TACP (1C4X1) SERE (1T0X1) and EOD (3E8X1). It is also why indoc courses differ or exist or do not exist for all Air Force career fields listed as having a PAST requirement.

This is why I throughout statistics having consistent rates for many years. Some of the statistics going back to 1951 and 1947. There is no way an applicant can game the system as most of the courses have or are in the process of implementing go-no go performance requirements that do not allow a blind eye to ignore meeting standards or a sympathy pass. Look at the new Army fitness test as an example.

With Secretary of Defense and other policy influential politicians telling the US Army significant force structure reduction will soon happen and tactical organization must be leaner, the quality but not quantity solution will eventually affect every military occupation regardless of military department. Thus what if you don't get through screening and training is becoming more important to think about.

 

[Johca]

For the record- when I wrote that, it wasn't my intention to boast. If it came off that way- apologies.

The context had no perspective or intent of boast to me, but your statement was a convenient use me as a target statement for me to emphasize a statistic.

 

[Johca]

I am even more interested in the "Considering studies on youth population and military recruitment claim “evidence suggests that cardiorespiratory endurance in young men has declined by approximately 10 percent since 1966” statement.

It almost seems as if to say "it actually WAS harder" in times past, at least speaking for the cardiorespiratory endurance in young men post 1966.

No the context in the study using my words is typical male graduation high school in and before 1966 were manly men and typical male graduating high school these have a girly or steroid enhanced level of physical fitness and ability. The mental and emotional fitness findings is regardless of gender there is growing numbers of males and females unable to emotionally function at an adult level in an adult environment.

However it was harder in my day, the PAST included flutter kicks, 8 count body builders, chin-ups and pull-ups. But then we were manly-men who were allowed to sing ploitcally incorrect jodies all over the base. (grin used as flutter kick, 8 count body builders, etc have no defining on how tough or difficult training was or is). It is as tough to standards today as it was when I went through, unless there is a free beer on the line for a different answer.)

 

[CDG]

I suppose it depends on why I didn't make it. I quit one SOF Selection (BUD/S) already. If I were to quit SFAS as well, I suppose that as hard as it would be to acknowledge, I would have to realize that I'm just not SOF material. I still would want to get into the fight, so I would reclass as 11B or a 19D hopefully and maybe go active duty or maybe finish my degree and try and get a federal job while staying in the Guard. If I was a non-select (my biggest fear) I would do my best to fix what I needed to fix and come back for another try after some seasoning in the Infantry. If I was injured I would hopefully be able to rehabilitate and come back for another shot, but if not, I would hopefully still be able to do something in the Combat Arms.

 

[digrar]

The whole die rather than quit thing, coming from people who have never spent a night lying behind a MG in an ambush amuses me. You don't even know if you're going to like soldiering, being woken at 1 in the morning to spend 3 hours lying behind a rifle, staring into the darkness, no real sleep in a week, starving, on a patrol with no real clear goals, pissing down with rain, being led by a clown who you're only following out of morbid curiosity. This isn't for everyone, no matter how long you've been dreaming of being a Ranger/SEAL/Sniper/18B/PJ/SSDG what ever.

 

[Pistol_Pete]

But then we were manly-men who were allowed to sing ploitcally incorrect jodies all over the base.

Those were the days! Damn, in today's PC world, do you guys remember some of the cadences we used to sing? ________the town and ______ the people, it's the only thing to do.... etc. I don't need to fill in the details. Mostly in Airborne Infantry /Infantry units. When I got to SF they didn't do much of that kind of thing of that but kept more to the quiet professional stance. Alright, lets not sidetrack the thread and start recounting all those old cadences. Probably don't need to bring them up on this site.

 

[Pistol_Pete]

The whole die rather than quit thing, coming from people who have never spent a night lying behind a MG in an ambush amuses me. You don't even know if you're going to like soldiering, being woken at 1 in the morning to spend 3 hours lying behind a rifle, staring into the darkness, no real sleep in a week, starving, on a patrol with no real clear goals, pissing down with rain, being led by a clown who you're only following out of morbid curiosity. This isn't for everyone, no matter how long you've been dreaming of being a Ranger/SEAL/Sniper/18B/PJ/SSDG what ever.

F'king - A, well said mate.

 

[Pistol_Pete]

My thoughts here. Of course it is crushing to the ego to fail in this endeavor to get through one of these SOF courses.

BUT, to anyone who's even tried - you have my respect and no doubt that of others who made it through. There is no shame in honorably trying and not making it, in my book. This shit is supposed to be if not the hardest thing you ever did - damn near the hardest.

And for those that keep at it, and go through it again and maybe even again, well that's the mental mindset it takes. I remember I got recycled in Patrolling. I had the last patrol. Everyone else "had theirs". It was a difficult hump and classically at 3:00 AM. People were just shot and dog tired, many barely functioning and I just couldn't get them to perform to a high enough standard let alone stay in a very organized patrol, so we missed our time. Later on ODA's we patrolled tight, like the pros we were. Everyone performed and nobody slacked. But it can be different in a course sometimes. So, whatever, I just did it again and passed Patrolling second time. There was no guarantee I would make it all the way through - until I did. You will hear those tales from Ranger school and elsewhere about how having the last graded patrol or even close to the last graded patrol can raise the risk factor. So, better be aware of that and somehow motivate and overcome any potential BF'ers.

So, if you don't make it? I recommend a Combat Arms unit to begin with. Preferably Airborne Infantry or a close cousin. That's where you go back to to refine yourself and keep trying. And if you tried and decide that the tip of SOF is not for you after all, there is still no shame in that in my book as long as you gave it your best effort.

I remember they used to line us up in early morning formation at Mackall and those who had been cut from the course that day were separated from the rest and made to stand in full view of the others still in training. Then the Ballad of The Green Beret was played over the blaring loudspeakers and the downcast, miserable lot was marched out, limping from camp and doing the "Duffle Bag Drag" as Barry sang us the famous song. This was followed by a lecture by a cadre member, and sometimes a dogging "WHO WANTS TO QUIT" session. It was a lot of drama but those are visions one never forgets. You felt bad for some of those going, some were good guys but injured, but you also felt proud to still be there.

 

[is friday]

As a non-select of MARSOC I've already seriously considered my "other options". I figure my backup plan is Battalion Recon... or if that doesn't fit me, standard 03xx. I need to do something grunt-like with my life before I get outta the Corps. Nobody joins the Marine Corps without at least a brief dream of being a Basic Rifleman--it's just that when we don't see combat, only some of us are just willing to put up with the bullshit of 4 more years for the chance at the privilege. I don't mean to sound morbid or strange but it would be an honor to shed blood in battle as my brave retired Devil Dogs have.

It's hard for me to understand why any other Marine would feel differently. Sure, disability from an IED blast or RPG shrapnel or even an AK round is a hard life... my heart goes out to those wounded vets who have given up something for this country. Not to mention those brave soldiers/Marines who have paid the ultimate price in defense of their brothers and in service to this great nation. Maybe I feel an obligation as a Marine to share the danger and put up with "the shit". It should be a part of my job description, because I love the Marine Corps and the Basic Rifleman is a part of our identity.

I don't know if I can "cut it" because obviously I have not lived the lifestyle, but I feel driven to succeed, so I will try my damndest to push through this next A&S in the Fall.

edit: I've been drinking a little bit, sorry to rant off topic.

 

[Deleted member 2517]

It is something to comes into my mind a lot. I like to think I'm tough and cool headed, but nothing in my life is in any way similar to BUD/S or BRC. So I have NO idea how I would hold up. I guess that's why I want to go- I'll go in with the "With my shield or on it" mentatlity. But I'll keep that shit to myself and stay humble. Because for all I know I might just hate it- hate every minute of cold water and sand.

The whole "what if you fail" has made me think a lot about what to do- if I go Navy, and get dropped, I'm probably screwed unless I could reclass to SARC/EOD/SAR/SWCC or something like that. I doubt I would put in for any of them if I just DOR'd- if I don't like one SOF course, what makes me think I'd like another?

The USMC would let me go do infantry stuff and hopefully expedite my chances of hitting up BRC again if I was performance or medical dropped. If I just quit because I couldn't pass BRC, I don't know how well I would fare in a Grunt unit- that shit is hard as hell and if I can't make the three months of pain in a non-Hostile enviornment, how would I do on a 6 month deployment to a warzone? I'm no wannabe-elitist prick who is only impressed by SOF guys- I know that being a conventional grunt is substantially harder than anything 95% of the population can handle.

These all weigh on my mind- not enough to keep me from going after it, but enough to keep me humble.

 

[TLDR20]

It is something to comes into my mind a lot. I like to think I'm tough and cool headed, but nothing in my life is in any way similar to BUD/S or BRC. So I have NO idea how I would hold up. I guess that's why I want to go- I'll go in with the "With my shield or on it" mentatlity. But I'll keep that shit to myself and stay humble. Because for all I know I might just hate it- hate every minute of cold water and sand.

The whole "what if you fail" has made me think a lot about what to do- if I go Navy, and get dropped, I'm probably screwed unless I could reclass to SARC/EOD/SAR/SWCC or something like that. I doubt I would put in for any of them if I just DOR'd- if I don't like one SOF course, what makes me think I'd like another?

The USMC would let me go do infantry stuff and hopefully expedite my chances of hitting up BRC again if I was performance or medical dropped. If I just quit because I couldn't pass BRC, I don't know how well I would fare in a Grunt unit- that shit is hard as hell and if I can't make the three months of pain in a non-Hostile enviornment, how would I do on a 6 month deployment to a warzone? I'm no wannabe-elitist prick who is only impressed by SOF guys- I know that being a conventional grunt is substantially harder than anything 95% of the population can handle.

These all weigh on my mind- not enough to keep me from going after it, but enough to keep me humble.

If I were you I would just go into the navy as a corpsman and go to BUD/S. If you fail you have more options, you listed them above. But you had better come committed to medicine, because no matter what if you are a SOF medic you will have a long road ahead of you. We all go through the same 6 month SOCM course(minus PJ's I heard they were scared of SOCM ). And it is fucking hard. That is all

 

[Deleted member 2517]

If I were you I would just go into the navy as a corpsman and go to BUD/S. If you fail you have more options, you listed them above. But you had better come committed to medicine, because no matter what if you are a SOF medic you will have a long road ahead of you. We all go through the same 6 month SOCM course(minus PJ's I heard they were scared of SOCM :) ). And it is fucking hard. That is all

I sucked at AP Bio in high school so I don't think medical would be my thing. I did want to be a medic/corpsman for a long time... until I took that class:eek:
I shouldn't have listed SARC up there- my bad. I just rattled off the other jobs in the Navy I think seem cool

 

[TLDR20]

The whole die rather than quit thing, coming from people who have never spent a night lying behind a MG in an ambush amuses me. You don't even know if you're going to like soldiering, being woken at 1 in the morning to spend 3 hours lying behind a rifle, staring into the darkness, no real sleep in a week, starving, on a patrol with no real clear goals, pissing down with rain, being led by a clown who you're only following out of morbid curiosity. This isn't for everyone, no matter how long you've been dreaming of being a Ranger/SEAL/Sniper/18B/PJ/SSDG what ever.

To add to this, most of the 18X-rays who went to basic training with me got rid of their contract prior to even finishing Basic. The reason was they really had no idea how miserable it was going to be. They thought "If Basic is like this, what is SOPC and SFAS going to be like?" . It is a reasonable question. The answer is simple, much much worse. I found it funny that they were quitting for a life that was really alot worse. Your life sucks ass during training, but once you are done the worst day in SF is better than the best day in the regular army.

 

[Johca]

We all go through the same 6 month SOCM course(minus PJ's I heard they were scared of SOCM :) ). And it is fucking hard. That is all

LOL, the Air Force wasn't happy with the intructor manpower funding it had to provide in addition to course being of significant more training days due to other medical traininh having little to do with trauma and paramedic skills. That plus Air Force could never get the PJ pipeline training to match up efficiently with SOCM course so there was way to much no training days happening for PJ students. This same issue resulted in Air Force establishing its own combat diver school and course.

However the SOCM course and PJ paramedic/TCCC course are difficult (hard) ones.

 

[TLDR20]

LOL, the Air Force wasn't happy with the intructor manpower funding it had to provide in addition to course being of significant more training days due to other medical traininh having little to do with trauma and paramedic skills. That plus Air Force could never get the PJ pipeline training to match up efficiently with SOCM course so there was way to much no training days happening for PJ students. This same issue resulted in Air Force establishing its own combat diver school and course.

However the SOCM course and PJ paramedic/TCCC course are difficult (hard) ones.

Yeah I have heard many different reasons for why they stopped coming. I heard it was because of the lack of EMT-P in the SOCM course now. I know that we only did trauma for 6 months so I don't know how that wouldn't be enough.

 

[Johca]

I'm pretty sure EMT-P was part of the curriculum when PJs dropped out. It was the funding issues and mostly the training day’s problem. The SOCM course and other PJ Course training requirement were never able to produce an efficient training schedule. Each fiscal year there was an extra 2-4 months (depending on class) increase in time it took to get a PJ from start of Indoc to completion of PJ School through training. There is on record incidents of setbacks (for whatever reason) resulting in students spending a complete 4 year enlistment in the PJ training pipeline and never getting a duty assignment. Also there was a requirement for AF to su[pply instructors and at the time PJ career field was 50% undermanned. The line units were not happy with qualified PJ being an instructor and not at an operational duty assignment.

These are the no-s't reasons.

 

[TLDR20]

I'm pretty sure EMT-P was part of the curriculum when PJs dropped out. It was the funding issues and mostly the training day’s problem. The SOCM course and other PJ Course training requirement were never able to produce an efficient training schedule. Each fiscal year there was an extra 2-4 months (depending on class) increase in time it took to get a PJ from start of Indoc to completion of PJ School through training. There is on record incidents of setbacks (for whatever reason) resulting in students spending a complete 4 year enlistment in the PJ training pipeline and never getting a duty assignment. Also there was a requirement for AF to su[pply instructors and at the time PJ career field was 50% undermanned. The line units were not happy with qualified PJ being an instructor and not at an operational duty assignment.

These are the no-s't reasons.

Makes sense. Thanks for that. I am sure your program is top notch.

 

[Seajack]

For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?

Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?

Right now, though subject to change, I want to be a Corpsman in NSW or with Recon.
If I get injured, I'll take my good ole' time to heal up and train back up to par, then try again on a second wind.
If I DOR then I'll go back to the fleet with the Marines, Seabee's or whoever I'm attached to.

I'm still going to serve and be the best damn Corpsman(or whatever it is I choose) I can be, though. I don't think I need to be a SEAL or in Recon to push my limits.