Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion
- Thread starter AWP
- Start date
Let me add,The AF went down this road already.
When flight training opened to women the pressure was on to graduate females. I went to SOS in 1988 (?), we had two AFA grads from the same class, one was a soup sandwich, and one ok. The soup sandwich was a female KC-135 Pilot, the other guy washed out of UPT and was a Nav.
They were in the same UPT class, and both failed the same check ride, he failed a re-check and went to Nav School; per multiple sources she failed the re-check and got another checkride which she passed.
Same standards right?
When Clinton was President we opened fighters to women, the AF and Navy raced to see who could get the first combat ready female fighter pilot. The Navy won, and she planted her F-14 into the stern of a carrier on her first operational landing. RIO survived, she didn't. Her Pilot Training Records were leaked by a disgruntled instructor, and we found that she was rushed through the system (some say she didn't meet fighter pilot criteria, I won't go that far).
The first female C-ALO couldn't pass her PT test, so PT test was dropped from the officer standard (they shouldn't be leaving the FOB, that's swine, err, enlisted work).
Bottom line, standards were waived for a female to achieve.
Management talks the talk, but a standard should not stop me from getting those Eagles, or a(nother) star.
I trust the enlisted women more than I trust the officers, female officers pushing this have whined being support hurt their careers (it'a all about me, #1). The first females into Regiment are probably your recent Ranger School grads, getting staff jobs at Rgt HQ.
When flight training opened to women the pressure was on to graduate females. I went to SOS in 1988 (?), we had two AFA grads from the same class, one was a soup sandwich, and one ok. The soup sandwich was a female KC-135 Pilot, the other guy washed out of UPT and was a Nav.
They were in the same UPT class, and both failed the same check ride, he failed a re-check and went to Nav School; per multiple sources she failed the re-check and got another checkride which she passed.
Same standards right?
When Clinton was President we opened fighters to women, the AF and Navy raced to see who could get the first combat ready female fighter pilot. The Navy won, and she planted her F-14 into the stern of a carrier on her first operational landing. RIO survived, she didn't. Her Pilot Training Records were leaked by a disgruntled instructor, and we found that she was rushed through the system (some say she didn't meet fighter pilot criteria, I won't go that far).
The first female C-ALO couldn't pass her PT test, so PT test was dropped from the officer standard (they shouldn't be leaving the FOB, that's swine, err, enlisted work).
Bottom line, standards were waived for a female to achieve.
Management talks the talk, but a standard should not stop me from getting those Eagles, or a(nother) star.
I trust the enlisted women more than I trust the officers, female officers pushing this have whined being support hurt their careers (it'a all about me, #1). The first females into Regiment are probably your recent Ranger School grads, getting staff jobs at Rgt HQ.
WTF is a gender-nuetral standard?
I had an A&S package that was rejected in 2012 because of my time in grade. I bet if I self-identify as a woman Ash Carter Inc. will intervene on my behalf and I'll have a seat immediately. I'm not against progression, I'm against weakness.
At least our Commandant keeps it real.
I had an A&S package that was rejected in 2012 because of my time in grade. I bet if I self-identify as a woman Ash Carter Inc. will intervene on my behalf and I'll have a seat immediately. I'm not against progression, I'm against weakness.
At least our Commandant keeps it real.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
To be honest, we need to go full Starship Troopers on this, but that won't happen. In my unit we had the first female FSO in the Division and probably the Army qualify on her Bradley. It was not a Q1, but it wasn't her problem that they weren't a Q1...eight of those engagements were on her gunner. The two she shot she hit in the 80s and 90s. She's a studette...but she's tiny, she hasn't gone on long duration patrols that we used to do before we went back to our MTOE fleet. She's a part of team, and gets that there's humor and dishes it right back out. I know the Mortar NCOs and they've taken care and aided in her mentorship, she has repaid them by being a solid leader.
Scouts Out.
Scouts Out.
We dont need to do shit and that mentality created this mess.
Your experience with a balls-to-the-wall soldier doesn't change the fact that the door is now wide-open to gender equality. That means lower standards, that means politics, and that means the integrity of it all (our community) is at risk to comprimise.
Not worth it.
Your experience with a balls-to-the-wall soldier doesn't change the fact that the door is now wide-open to gender equality. That means lower standards, that means politics, and that means the integrity of it all (our community) is at risk to comprimise.
Not worth it.
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This whole thread reminds me of a very old science fiction book I read many years ago titled, Harrison Bergeron. (short plot synopsis within link)
From Wiki -
Harrison Bergeron is a satirical and dystopian science-fiction short story written by Kurt Vonnegut and first published in October 1961.
The story was written as a satire to offer a critique on people's claims that we should all be equal. It has been embraced by those critical of egalitarianism as an allegory of caution against socially enforced equality, more specifically the dangers of enforcing equality by virtue of leveling
From Wiki -
Harrison Bergeron is a satirical and dystopian science-fiction short story written by Kurt Vonnegut and first published in October 1961.
The story was written as a satire to offer a critique on people's claims that we should all be equal. It has been embraced by those critical of egalitarianism as an allegory of caution against socially enforced equality, more specifically the dangers of enforcing equality by virtue of leveling
A MARINE bringing up Vonnegut's story of a way beyond standard person in a less than mediocre society? I'm surprised 1. that you've read it, and 2. that you understood it.
I've always liked the story, and it is germane to the discussion.
Years ago the pressure on those who ran certain highly specialized or high tech military courses or schools was racial in nature. The word comes down "You will pass this candidate." The consequences to your career are left unspoken. No reason it can't happen now with regard to sex.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
In the British Army, regular units are open to women, SOF are not. But, from what I've seen and others can correct me...the standard is very high for the men and the women who serve in Combat Arms units must meet those standards which is why there are so few.
Unsure about the Brits, but we've been open to in service applicants for 2 years, and off the streets applicants start next year. So far we have one female officer serving at the school of foot, who I believe is close to standard, but not quite there. I've hear that she won't be going out to one of the Battalions. We've had about 3 women attempt SASR and 2 Commando selection. They were not even close to making the standard.
Armoured, Artillery and Engineers have had some more success with integration.
Armoured, Artillery and Engineers have had some more success with integration.
I just read it. I've always liked Vonnegut.
Allen West on the apparent shredding of the female Ranger's school records.
As Obama ORDERS women in combat, look what we discovered about female Army Rangers!
As Obama ORDERS women in combat, look what we discovered about female Army Rangers!
Brill
SOF Support
Key takeaway from that editorial:
"There is a huge difference between being in a combat zone and being in close quarters combat."
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
So not even a 1059 is available?
They are asking for backups to the 1059's... IOW, the instructor cards that backup the SAT's/MCS's on the 1059... but, alas, the backup is gone for these 3 graduates.
Really mind boggling that they would destroy everything, is that common practice?
No, it's not. Mine and just about everyone else's records are still on file.
A Ranger Buddy of mine smelled something was fishy and initiated the request to Russell. In the past, he's been dead on, 100% and in this case, I feel no different.
Colonel Fivecoat needs to be called to the carpet and explain this phenomena. Seems lately, that everyone from Lerner, Hillary, and anyone else that has been linked to this administration with a pending scandal about to be exposed, has disappearing files, e-mails and records.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
So if they can't produce anything...tabs? That's how this goes right? Stolen Valor and stories you tell at a Bar?
Dude, they got permanent orders awarding the tab.
Kraut783
SOF Support
Well, so much for transparency......way to start with a controversial issue :wall:
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