Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[DA SWO]

How can she fail? This is the first test of the administration's gender neutral combat arms policy with regard to infantry. Apply pressure where needed with extreme prejudice.

The only way she fails IMV is if she can't hack the course and the administration lets her fail as proof to the naysayers the standards have not been lowered...even if they have been.

She can quit when she gets her first taste of tentless camping.

 

[Brill]

There were MPs in Afghanistan...outside of BAF?

 

[pardus]

There were MPs in Afghanistan...outside of BAF?

MP's have done some real Grunt work. I recall a highly decorated female MP that kicked some serious ass and was clearing trenches of Jihadis with an M9 in Iraq.

 

[Brill]

MP's have done some real Grunt work. I recall a highly female MP that kicked some serious ass and was clearing trenches of Jihadis with an M9 in Iraq.

Shit, that's right! Received a Silver Star too?

 

[AWP]

Shit, that's right! Received a Silver Star too?

And her boss whom you never hear about received a DSC for the same action.

 

[Brill]

And her boss whom you never hear about received a DSC for the same action.

Micro aggression detected!

 

[digrar]

How can she fail?

I'll put $10 on one of the following, stress fractures in legs, stress fractures in hips, not able to maintain pace while marching with weight, stress fractures in feet, stress fractures in spine, soft tissue injuries pretty much everywhere, a hernia.

 

[Kraut783]

Is that the one that was awarded the silver star in Iraq?

 

[pardus]

Is that the one that was awarded the silver star in Iraq?

Yes I believe so.

 

[pardus]

It's not that women don't have the balls, They have certainly proved that many times over. They just don't have the body that evolved over millions of years to hunt and kill, that allows them to be a Grunt.

 

[Gunz]

It's not that women don't have the balls, They have certainly proved that many times over. They just don't have the body that evolved over millions of years to hunt and kill, that allows them to be a Grunt.

Rog that...women can fight and kill and have been doing it throughout history. And there are some badass ladies out there who will undoubtedly pass even the toughest training.

You guys have rightly pointed out the physical differences. What concerns me more is the interaction at squad and platoon level of male and female. Sexual tension, favoritism, the psychological forces that may be at work, particularly during long stints of garrison duty. There are going to be relationships among squad-mates. Break-ups. Domestic arguments in the squadbay. Some male NCOs might show favoritism to a pretty soldier :wall::wall:, some female soldiers might use their charms to elicit favoritism. This shit is going to happen because it happens anywhere males and females work together for extended periods. We all know that. Hell, there are enough barrack squabbles among males already.

 

[digrar]

You guys have rightly pointed out the physical differences. What concerns me more is the interaction at squad and platoon level of male and female. Sexual tension, favoritism, the psychological forces that may be at work, particularly during long stints of garrison duty. There are going to be relationships among squad-mates. Break-ups. Domestic arguments in the squadbay. Some male NCOs might show favoritism to a pretty soldier :wall::wall:, some female soldiers might use their charms to elicit favoritism. This shit is going to happen because it happens anywhere males and females work together for extended periods. We all know that. Hell, there are enough barrack squabbles among males already.

Support units have been dealing with this sort of stuff for decades without imploding. I don't see it as too much of an issue. Any reduction in standards on the other hand, letting underdone people into the role will reduce Infantry units ability to seize and hold ground and will make artillery and armoured units less effective.

 

[TLDR20]

How can she fail? This is the first test of the administration's gender neutral combat arms policy with regard to infantry. Apply pressure where needed with extreme prejudice.

The only way she fails IMV is if she can't hack the course and the administration lets her fail as proof to the naysayers the standards have not been lowered...even if they have been.

How did all those other women fail at various levels? Still none have passed the Marines IOBC, 3 out of a bunch passed Ranger School. Obviously they are failing the fuck out of women.

 

[BloodStripe]

What does a single recycle cost the agency? For example, if a ITB student is dropped for whatever reason, how much money does it cost for them to repeat the cycles they already passed? I think this will be what generally causes standards to be dropped and allow shitty grunts to slip through the cracks. That and the training command just wants to wipe their hands of them.

 

[Mad boomer]

All military services today have reduced Physical standards and scores for women. Women also have higher acceptable body fat standards by DOD regulations. The USMC study of females in combat roles, in direct combat postings, demonstrated reduced combat effectiveness. Mixed gender units achieved much lower task ratings as a whole than all male units. Thereby reducing the combat effectiveness of the unit across the board. The NAVSEC buried the report as did Carter the SECDEF and ordered immediate integration of females in the force. Political correctness wins!

 

[ThunderHorse]

It wasn't buried as much as it was wholly discounted and ignored.

 

[TLDR20]

As to the body fat stuff, women need more body ft to be healthy. Let's take any elite female athlete, they will have a much higher body fat than the comparable male athlete. We are looking for the Ronda Rousey type female for the infantry, she is going to have 12-20% fat. Using that as a measure is stupid.

 

[Gunz]

Support units have been dealing with this sort of stuff for decades without imploding. I don't see it as too much of an issue. Any reduction in standards on the other hand, letting underdone people into the role will reduce Infantry units ability to seize and hold ground and will make artillery and armoured units less effective.

Yes, you're right about mixed-gender support units. And women have been serving in close quarters aboard naval vessels for years now. I guess the issues come up but are dealt with. I never served in a mixed-gender unit so my opinions on it are probably best kept to myself. With regard to women in the infantry, it's a generational thing but it's hard for me to imagine women Marines on Iwo Jima or Guadalcanal, or humping the load we carried in VN.

 

[Grunt]

A ship is a far cry from the field. Life as a grunt is nasty. There is no other way to put it. Hygiene is horrible and will be a force to be reckoned with by females. Things are what they are and those issues will have to be dealt with as they arise. The biggest issue with that is -- will it off-set the combat effectiveness of that unit at that time.

Until those things are tested in actual combat...no one will truly know.

 

[AWP]

I think you'll see fewer problems with women and men living alongside one another than you expect. I believe the real sticking point will be performance and that fallout will ripple into disgust with other issues.

Time will tell, but I think it will validate everyone's fears about performance and politics.