Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[DocIllinois]

The only time I've ever seen anyone other than infantry/SOF with a ruck, they were carrying it to a truck. So no I haven't, but really 20 minute mile pace?

The main body pace can be on listless side.

Don't get me wrong here; our support folks are awesome for rides, maintenance, getting paid, etc.

Moving out while being a human pack mule, though, just isn't in their wheel house.

 

[Devildoc]

The main body pace can be on listless side.

Don't get me wrong here; our support folks are awesome for rides, maintenance, getting paid, etc.

Moving out while being a human pack mule, though, just isn't in their wheel house.

20 min pace for a distance hump sounds about right. A lot slower for shitty terrain. In jungle we were lucky to make a 30 min/mile pace.

 

[policemedic]

We need to start discussing time standards along with these distances.

7th ID(L) standard for 25 miles was <8hrs if I recall.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

7th ID(L) standard for 25 miles was <8hrs if I recall.

I'm guessing with a few halts, water, food, etc?

ETA: assuming you guys did four 15 minute halts during a 25 miler, that would put it around 16.8 minutes a mile to complete in 8 hours. That seems a bit of a more realistic movement for a light infantry unit.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I did a couple of 25+ mile rucks, but outside of the bayonet event at Benning, they were personal event's, Bataan memorial, a military style amazing race event, a unit challenge ruck marathon. But I've always got to set my pace on those, and try to stay around 15 minute a mile pace for distance. I've done a shit load of 6-12 mile rucks and I normally just flat ran those or stayed low 14's for pace. And in all honesty I was pretty slow compared to alot of the guys I would train with, as in I was pushing hard to keep up with them. Former 82nd and 25th guy's, the dude from the 25th was a rucking fool.

 

[Teufel]

We need to start discussing time standards along with these distances.

The Marine Corps Combat Readiness Evaluation standard is 25 Miles/40 kilometers in under 8 hours. Normally you march at a 4 miles an hour pace but stop 10 minutes every hour to change socks.

 

[policemedic]

I'm guessing with a few halts, water, food, etc?

ETA: assuming you guys did four 15 minute halts during a 25 miler, that would put it around 16.8 minutes a mile to complete in 8 hours. That seems a bit of a more realistic movement for a light infantry unit.

Yes. Don't honestly remember how often the halts came, though.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Last 30 miler I did, first call at midnight, movement at 1230 to stepoff point, started walking at around two, home before lunch.

 

[digrar]

Matildas lose 7-0 to U15 side

Elite female athletes, toweled up by a regional representative team of 15 year olds...

 

[ThunderHorse]

Two week transition course...This sergeant is the Army's first female enlisted infantry soldier

 

[Kraut783]

Hate to be an ass....but I hope she is a better soldier than she looks....she looks like a 42A.

 

[Centermass]

Two week transition course...This sergeant is the Army's first female enlisted infantry soldier

Well, Griest sidestepped IOBC, IOAC, and all the 3-4 years worth of experience in between even more valuable, so, why not?

This one goes through a 2 week WY NG course and wham, bam, TY ma'am..another one "Instant Infantry.

Jesus H. Christ on a crutch. Last time I checked, the only "Bona Fide" Infantry course in the Army was at Benning and it was a lot longer than what she went through. (And no, the TASS route doesn't cut it)

And by virtue of her rank, that would make her a Fire Team Leader?? Seriously, this is fucking not only ridiculous, it's downright dangerous and stupid. To all my buddies in the Corps, the fix is in. Based on what's now going on within the Army, you can bet your ass the heat is going to be turned up and it's heading your way. Believe me.

Everyone here knows I'm not in agreement with this whole social engineering circus, but for the life of me, this approach of standards be damned, we'll just go the way of the Shake and Bake method has hit a new low with regards to preparation, training and standards.

 

[DocIllinois]

Well, Griest sidestepped IOBC, IOAC, and all the 3-4 years worth of experience in between even more valuable, so, why not?

This one goes through a 2 week WY NG course and wham, bam, TY ma'am..another one "Instant Infantry.

Jesus H. Christ on a crutch. Last time I checked, the only "Bona Fide" Infantry course in the Army was at Benning and it was a lot longer than what she went through. (And no, the TASS route doesn't cut it)

And by virtue of her rank, that would make her a Fire Team Leader?? Seriously, this is fucking not only ridiculous, it's downright dangerous and stupid. To all my buddies in the Corps, the fix is in. Based on what's now going on within the Army, you can bet your ass the heat is going to be turned up and it's heading your way. Believe me.

Everyone here knows I'm not in agreement with this whole social engineering circus, but for the life of me, this approach of standards be damned, we'll just go the way of the Shake and Bake method has hit a new low with regards to preparation, training and standards.

Our INF unit will soon be getting a female Two Week Course E5 assigned who won't even be part of an operational platoon, but a "liaison" for incoming lower enlisted female 11Bs.

The painfully obvious issues with this have been discussed elsewhere on SS.

My $.02 worth of fuel to the above fire.

 

[DA SWO]

Well, Griest sidestepped IOBC, IOAC, and all the 3-4 years worth of experience in between even more valuable, so, why not?

This one goes through a 2 week WY NG course and wham, bam, TY ma'am..another one "Instant Infantry.

Jesus H. Christ on a crutch. Last time I checked, the only "Bona Fide" Infantry course in the Army was at Benning and it was a lot longer than what she went through. (And no, the TASS route doesn't cut it)

And by virtue of her rank, that would make her a Fire Team Leader?? Seriously, this is fucking not only ridiculous, it's downright dangerous and stupid. To all my buddies in the Corps, the fix is in. Based on what's now going on within the Army, you can bet your ass the heat is going to be turned up and it's heading your way. Believe me.

Everyone here knows I'm not in agreement with this whole social engineering circus, but for the life of me, this approach of standards be damned, we'll just go the way of the Shake and Bake method has hit a new low with regards to preparation, training and standards.

The Guard has run two-week Infantry Courses for years now.

 

[Florida173]

The Guard has run two-week Infantry Courses for years now.

There's a reason why no one thinks highly of national guard infantry

 

[Kraut783]

The Guard has run two-week Infantry Courses for years now.

True....but, this is a new twist with the female thing...like a backdoor.

 

[Centermass]

The Guard has run two-week Infantry Courses for years now.

Like I said earlier........

Jesus H. Christ on a crutch. Last time I checked, the only "Bona Fide" Infantry course in the Army was at Benning and it was a lot longer than what she went through. (And no, the TASS route doesn't cut it)

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

The Guard has run two-week Infantry Courses for years now.

We don't like the two week geeks either.

 

[Centermass]

There's a reason why no one thinks highly of national guard infantry

Even though I don't agree with the system there Bud, that's some pretty arrogant shit you posted.

Hating the system is one thing, disrespecting them overall with a statement such as you did, demonstrates you still have a lot of maturing left to do.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Just playing Devil's Advocate regarding a couple aspects...

I would personally consider someone who even just went through, let alone graduated, all 64 some odd days comprising three phases of Ranger school to be better qualified in Infantry tasks and operations, than someone straight out of 11B OSUT.

Ranger school's 9 weeks total. Excluding 8 weeks for Basic, 11x OSUT is 5 weeks, discounting any 11 series above Bravo's additional training.

Putting things into other perspective, it's been a long-standing rule/thing that non-infantry that DO graduate school, get a secondary mos of 11B. This wonderful rule gave MSG Van Aalst to Regiment and the unit.

The officers will be better equipped to look at things from that side of the military with regards to how things work for cross-branch transfers, and what is expected OF a cross-branch transfer... However, there IS a precedent in place for MOS swaps at least on the enlisted side of things.

IOBC is about 5 months long, so longer than Ranger school but anyone who's been to school knows exactly how well prepared and capable those recent graduates are, when it comes to the arduous experiences of Ranger school.

Where does the cirriculum differ/diverge between what an aviation officer receives, and what an Infantry officer receives? Obviously, there's different planning metrics and such with regards to how aviation plans out operations, both logistically and tactically, however IF all things were equal at School.... a female crossbranch would still know all the opord, movement, planning, etc as needed by being a graduate. Paperwork's paperwork, counseling statements, statements of charges, supply requests... these are all standard military forms and things.

Taking off the devil horns now, I still personally have no issue with the concept of women in the military, in any job.

The issue is that there's no single standard being applied, straight out the gate with a sole branch PT test and subsequent MOS specific physical qualification. The simple fact is that each job in the military, regardless of sex, has physical demands. Mechanics need to be able to mule about a towbar. Infantry needs to mule around M2's and Mk19's. Cooks need to be able to haul mermites. Intel guys need to be able to carry laptops. Bla de blah.

Going further, specific units, Regiment being a prime example, have pure flat expectations for those who are in the unit, as in the past and even now, all Rangers in the Regiment are expected to be multitalented and flexible, hence the 80% minimum across the board as well as other mission-specific requirements for placement and continued service.

Putting a physical capacity framework in, with a minimum service standard for the military branch being discussed, followed up with MOS specific requirements, and then digressing into Battalion, Regiment or Brigade level standardization pulling straight off of both of those (IE, Infantry BN goes off Infantry standard regardless of MOS, as an example), would be a huge step in the right direction towards ensuring the physical capacity of ALL troops within a unit, even currently all-male or classically all-male manned units.