Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[ThunderHorse]

http://forgodandcountry.com/news/us...ecruits-cant-throw-far-enough/?utm_source=MOH

The stupid thing about this...previous week: Increased Discipline coming to Basic Training was the headline...

 

[Mad boomer]

Spoke to my son today. Of the 15 females (not 14) in his company 5 are on profiles now. The majority of them are falling out of company runs with regularity. 4 of them are openly saying they chose wrong to come to the Infantry. One has sought out emotional counseling and taken off the line because yelling and physical punishment from the NCOs stresses her out and creates a hostile work environment. None are being assigned machine guns for fear of them injuring themselves, and going out on back or hip injuries. There is some discipline problems currently relative to attitudes of several of the females that are disrespectful to the NCOs. One openly requested that the NCO not give her the same exercises because she was tired and couldn't continue the exercise and quit. She then broke down in tears and refused to continue with the exercises. The NCOs have to speak with the females with a witness present in order to avoid complaints and IGs. New Army...Rah! Combat effective? Hummmmmmmm

 

[Ooh-Rah]

4 of them are openly saying they chose wrong to come to the Infantry.

One has sought out emotional counseling and taken off the line because yelling and physical punishment from the NCOs stresses her out and creates a hostile work environment.

Gee, nobody called this.

 

[256]

I wonder if any females would be competing in the Olympics if there wouldn’t segregation of the sports...

 

[Gunz]

This is what happens when you try to make the military all-inclusive and "fair" for everybody. I remember my SDI saying, "America is a democracy...the Marine Corps ain't." We are really digging a fucking hole here that we'll never get out of. The only hope, I suppose, is that warfighting technology can compensate for the dilution of individual combat effectiveness.

You can water down the whiskey. But you don't get more whiskey...you just get more water.

 

[Mad boomer]

Gee, nobody called this.

I think they need to create a single, 1 position in every Infantry squad for females. An extra additional posting for females. They are exempted from all standards, drills, exercises and punishment. They get all the awards, accolades and promotions but have no authority in the squad and or deploy with the squad in combat operations. Give them tabs, badges and or pretty things for their uniform but keep them in the rear in war. They will and are reducing the combat effectiveness of the infantry and our war fighting ability as a whole in the future.

 

[Teufel]

I read this updated story and found that the endurance test had been changed to an “all or nothing” in 2012. Til then, it was as it is now, part of the course, but not a specific deal breaker.

Difficult for me to doubt the motives for changing back now in 2018, but it’s not as if the Corps overturned 100 years of tradition here.

Marine Corps Quietly Drops Major Obstacle to Female Infantry Officers

I had a weekend to prepare for IOC after graduating from TBS. Granted it’s been a minute. Or 15 years. We had to pass the combat endurance test to class up but everyone passed (aside from some of the international students). I think some Marines had to remediate though. I don’t remember.

 

[Marine0311]

I think they need to create a single, 1 position in every Infantry squad for females. An extra additional posting for females. They are exempted from all standards, drills, exercises and punishment. They get all the awards, accolades and promotions but have no authority in the squad and or depoy with the squad in combat operations. Give them tabs, badges and or pretty things for their uniform but keep them in the rear in war. They will and are reducing the combat effectiveness of the infantry and our war fighting ability as a whole in the future.

I would not put them in at all.

 

[policemedic]

I've said it before, and I think it's becoming clearer as we move forward with this experiment. I think there are some women who can hack it in the Infantry. However, the question we need to ask is whether the juice is worth the squeeze because right now, the answer seems to be no. That doesn't mean that women can't be useful and effective behind a gun in the military, but I'm not sure the Infantry is the right place for them to make their contribution.

 

[AWP]

I've said it before, and I think it's becoming clearer as we move forward with this experiment. I think there are some women who can hack it in the Infantry. However, the question we need to ask is whether the juice is worth the squeeze because right now, the answer seems to be no. That doesn't mean that women can't be useful and effective behind a gun in the military, but I'm not sure the Infantry is the right place for them to make their contribution.

diminishing returns | Definition & Example

 

[Mad boomer]

I would not put them in at all.

Agreed, but it appears regardless of facts there's no turning back.

 

[Gunz]

I read this updated story and found that the endurance test had been changed to an “all or nothing” in 2012. Til then, it was as it is now, part of the course, but not a specific deal breaker.

Difficult for me to doubt the motives for changing back now in 2018, but it’s not as if the Corps overturned 100 years of tradition here.

Marine Corps Quietly Drops Major Obstacle to Female Infantry Officers

Interesting...so if I have a female in my squad during an extended combat operation that demands foot mobility over difficult terrain for many hours or even days, she might not be able to carry her share of gear and squad organic weapons and ammo? Or help carry a WIA to an extraction point? Or do half the shit we normally have to do?

Jesus, we carried 90-100 pounds of gear every day or night when moving to or from an ambush site or rendezvous. My freaking shoulders hurt just thinking about it. MG ammo, Claymores, C4, LAAWs, 40mm HE, radio batteries, strobes, frags, smokes, flares, were all distributed through the team. Everybody carried at least 70-80 lbs of their own personal gear and a full load-out of ammo as well as the gear that had to be shared.

I've tried, as long as we've had this discussion, to keep an open mind. But given the conditions we routinely endured, I can't imagine too many females being able to hack it. And anybody who couldn't hack it would've been shitcanned in a hurry.

 

[Bypass]

I dig this quote from the article:
It's not about what you think you can do. It's about what you can demonstrate that you can do.
I have known plenty of joes over the last two decades who thought they could do something that turned out to be not the case.

I thought I could fly this one time...........Case in point. I will never drink that much tequila again.

 

[Mad boomer]

Interesting...so if I have a female in my squad during an extended combat operation that demands foot mobility over difficult terrain for many hours or even days, she might not be able to carry her share of gear and squad organic weapons and ammo? Or help carry a WIA to an extraction point? Or do half the shit we normally have to do?

We routinely carried 90-100 pounds of gear every day or night when moving to or from an ambush site or rendezvous. MG ammo, Claymores, C4, LAAWs, 40mm HE, PRC25 batteries, strobes, frags, smokes, flares, were all distributed through the team. Everybody carried at least 70-80 lbs of their own personal gear and lots of ammo as well as the gear that had to be shared.

I've tried--as long as we've had this discussion--to shed my preconceived biases and keep an open mind--but given the conditions we routinely endured, I can't imagine too many females being able to hack it. And anybody who couldn't hack it would've been ostracized and shitcanned.

Exactly! Hear here, as a former Infantry squad leader and platoon sergeant I agree 100%. This is a politically correct fantasy to change human nature and the facts of human development for a million years.

 

[reed11b]

How do you figure it's not?

It's not NFL level of physical requirement. It's a false comparison. There are no 140lb NFL linebackers, but there are plenty of 140lb grunts still humping mortars and MGs.

 

[Ranger Psych]

There's a female at Regiment now, and apparently while tabless, she's doing just fine.

There are women that can meet the standard and pound for pound do the job. They are few and far between, and no amount of command pressure is going to change the fact that those that not only could, but want to try, to meet the standards inherent for 11B or beyond, are going to be unicorns.

 

[Deleted member 2517]

There's a female at Regiment now, and apparently while tabless, she's doing just fine.

There are women that can meet the standard and pound for pound do the job. They are few and far between, and no amount of command pressure is going to change the fact that those that not only could, but want to try, to meet the standards inherent for 11B or beyond, are going to be unicorns.

She was in SURT with me. She’s a solid woman. Changed my view on this topic.

 

[BloodStripe]

It's not NFL level of physical requirement. It's a false comparison. There are no 140lb NFL linebackers, but there are plenty of 140lb grunts still humping mortars and MGs.

Football is a very physical game. The NFL is full of extremely athletic people, to include the linemen. I would argue most linemen are the most athletic people on a field. Watch how fast a 275lb guy can run. Then watch a 200lb RB block him.

 

[CDG]

Guys, stay on topic. This thread is not about physical requirements in the NFL.

 

[Devildoc]

USMC IOC also lower requirements for hikes:

Infantry Officer Course lowers requirement for hikes

Again, it's really not lowering standards, just a reset to make IOC more realistic to doctrine.