Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion
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ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Just wait, doctrine is about to be degraded...
Devildoc
Verified Military
....just as the Corps talk about more realistic training and exercises, and the CMC talks about having to fight to get to the fight....
One of my good CRO friends (Officer type) succinctly put into words what a lot of people have been struggling with.
"Are there females that can make it into our career field!? Absolutely there are. Right now, there are women walking this earth that could make it and be great operators. And currently, those women are getting paid 7 figures to be CrossFit™ athletes or training at the Olympic Training Center. They have zero interest in taking an 800% pay cut to risk their lives and enlist just to prove a point."
I think that's pretty true. As far as all this talk about "standards are lowering, doctrine is degraded..." As far as I am concerned, the rank and file own those. Don't want standards to drop? Cool. Don't drop your personal standards and do it above reproach. Seems to be working ok so far.
"Are there females that can make it into our career field!? Absolutely there are. Right now, there are women walking this earth that could make it and be great operators. And currently, those women are getting paid 7 figures to be CrossFit™ athletes or training at the Olympic Training Center. They have zero interest in taking an 800% pay cut to risk their lives and enlist just to prove a point."
I think that's pretty true. As far as all this talk about "standards are lowering, doctrine is degraded..." As far as I am concerned, the rank and file own those. Don't want standards to drop? Cool. Don't drop your personal standards and do it above reproach. Seems to be working ok so far.
Even for those women, the world of combat arms/SOF is an entirely different animal. In a pipeline, you aren't having your sleep. nutrition, recovery, and workouts managed for you in a way to sustain and peak. You aren't spending time with a physical therapist, massage therapist, chiropractor, etc. You're not getting workouts cut short because all your neurons aren't firing that particular morning. So it's different. And there's the fact that making it through a pipeline is one thing, and being a valuable asset in the operational force is a different thing. So maybe some of them can still make it through months of little sleep, MREs, weather, hours long PT sessions, and endless miles under a heavy ruck. Great. Now what? The pipeline is just the beginning.
Your last line sounds great, but the fact is that the rank and file can't do anything about politicians and senior officers changing standards.
Devildoc
Verified Military
OK, I have put up some memes today. I'm not in a great mood, I'm sick, and I have a physical in 2 hours where a very nice gentleman is going to violate me with his pointer. So I have been looking for things to make me laugh. This checks that box and the box for this thread:
Says you! We are doing exactly the bolded (down to omega wave monitoring and sleep/nutrition adjustment in real time thanks to wearables) for our pipeline students. And we just got our wearables here at the SQ too... thanks to our staff of physical therapists
As far as the rank and file not having control? I think it's probably more perspective than anything else, but I disagree. Working for AETC has only shown me exactly how much freedom I have in what other people call a "restrictive" environment. Easiest way to fuck the system up is from the inside.
Says you! We are doing exactly the bolded (down to omega wave monitoring and sleep/nutrition adjustment in real time thanks to wearables) for our pipeline students. And we just got our wearables here at the SQ too... thanks to our staff of physical therapists
As far as the rank and file not having control? I think it's probably more perspective than anything else, but I disagree. Working for AETC has only shown me exactly how much freedom I have in what other people call a "restrictive" environment. Easiest way to fuck the system up is from the inside.
Maybe at Kirtland you are. Are they doing that at Indoc, where the major attrition occurs?
And then what's the rollout like? I assume all those variables I mentioned are still pipeline factors, i.e. sleep deprivation, MREs, etc. There may be more options for recovery in your (limited) off time, but it's still vastly different form the regimen a professional athlete is under.
Yeah of course I agree with that. The thought on the rollout is- recruit and develop the right candidate. Push candidate to the absolute limit and do do with verified data backing up the process.
Continue that monitoring and data collection through the life cycle of the operator in order to maximize longevity and durability across the BA enterprise.
Now, sure, that’s different than a pro athlete for sure, but it’s lightnyears ahead of where we’ve been.
I think all that applies to women in SOF because just like the men, we are going to be able to properly identify and develop a candidate that may be a great operator but is just on that precipice for one reason or another.
@Ooh-Rah sorry. OCONUS and have had bad reach back with what's going on.
I know the candidate was dropped prior to phase 2/the last 3 weeks. My opinions were going to be based on if she got pushed through. But they're keeping the process strict and clean over here.
To add to something beyond the pipeline and workup life, what about international relations? (its probably been covered, I haven't been keeping up).
When we're talking about the culture in some of these places, the middle east specifically, how do they think a woman walking up to a arab coalition partner/leadership is gonna turn out? Or to lead training for them? Saudi, Iraqi, Jordan, Lebanon, etc, and a female SOF member walks up says.. "Hi, I'm the Team Leader, let's discuss xyz" or "Hi, I'm the 18E, I need to talk with you about doing xyz or see if we can coordinate logistical support?"
My experiences are that they're too proud, and get offended if you try and "teach/train" them. They'd rather train with you, as they see themselves equally capable as us.. Can you imagine throwing in a woman teammate for them to be "peers" with?
Just a discussion we've been having recently over here.
I know the candidate was dropped prior to phase 2/the last 3 weeks. My opinions were going to be based on if she got pushed through. But they're keeping the process strict and clean over here.
To add to something beyond the pipeline and workup life, what about international relations? (its probably been covered, I haven't been keeping up).
When we're talking about the culture in some of these places, the middle east specifically, how do they think a woman walking up to a arab coalition partner/leadership is gonna turn out? Or to lead training for them? Saudi, Iraqi, Jordan, Lebanon, etc, and a female SOF member walks up says.. "Hi, I'm the Team Leader, let's discuss xyz" or "Hi, I'm the 18E, I need to talk with you about doing xyz or see if we can coordinate logistical support?"
My experiences are that they're too proud, and get offended if you try and "teach/train" them. They'd rather train with you, as they see themselves equally capable as us.. Can you imagine throwing in a woman teammate for them to be "peers" with?
Just a discussion we've been having recently over here.
D
Deleted member 11415
Guest
I asked this! I was told, "if is successful it's shit hot planning, and if it's not, you get a letter that says "This is your job. Do it better."
If this was a rhetorical question, I missed it, I apologize and I'll be quiet after I say this next part.
Men in the Middle East may not like females, but they don't like children or disabled people either. They don't like anyone, so if the female is great, being female will be a non-issue. If she's not great, she won't be there. The right operator facilitates mediation in diversity and accomplishes the objective 100% of the time. Any gender operator can get along with Arab partners/leaders if that's the task.
How about "Fuck Arabs" as a general rule and we'll be ok?
Florida173
SOF Support
There is indeed stuff happening outside of the Middle East and northern Africa.
Today in class one of my students told me that in floor hockey, women earn two points for a goal and the men only one.
I was a bit skeptical that in 2018 we'd still have rules like this but I looked it up when I got home and it appears he was right. A goal scored by a woman is literally worth twice one scored by a man, simply because of her gender.
https://www.ohio.edu/recreation/intramural/upload/floorhockeyrules1213.pdf
You know who was the most dismissive of the necessity and value of this rule? The women in my class. It's ridiculous special treatment like this that makes it hard for the sexes to be truly "equal." Too many times, especially in mandatory co-ed events in the military, I've seen it come down to who has the best female on the team, not who has the best team.
Make the rules, and let the best people compete.
I was a bit skeptical that in 2018 we'd still have rules like this but I looked it up when I got home and it appears he was right. A goal scored by a woman is literally worth twice one scored by a man, simply because of her gender.
https://www.ohio.edu/recreation/intramural/upload/floorhockeyrules1213.pdf
You know who was the most dismissive of the necessity and value of this rule? The women in my class. It's ridiculous special treatment like this that makes it hard for the sexes to be truly "equal." Too many times, especially in mandatory co-ed events in the military, I've seen it come down to who has the best female on the team, not who has the best team.
Make the rules, and let the best people compete.
Topkick
Verified Military
And this a sport in which women have excelled.
These are the rare exception not the rule. The problem is the standards are different, selection physically is different, relative to standards. I know a woman who is an amazing SWAT team member, she can do more pull ups then most of the men, run as fast or faster, can fireman carry a full equipped officer on her back, and do everything in exceptional performance levels. She was in fact a honor graduate at her academy. We had kids that were veterans, representing every branch, occupational field and service in that course. She is utterly amazing, beatiful BTW and not homosexual... Our standards for the state of California are gender neutral, men and women have no distinctions. The shooting standards, PT, obstacle course time and all requirements are exactly the same. She is the only female certified team member out of 450 personnel...period. We have had dozens upon dozens try out and fail miserably. Typical they fail the firearms and obstacle course timed run. Or their body begins to break down during training rendering them useless within 4 days. If they make through our phase 1 course, they fail phase 2. These are two, two week courses, and they must qualify as a prospective team member for 12 months prior to being sent to the courses. The problem is the Federal government and DOD in general won't take this approach. The goal is females in the Infantry, not the best most qualified person. Then there's the matter of biological issues and unit readiness and special considerations.
So a lifetime ago, when my wife and I first met, we played on a co-ed soccer team in the DC area that had the same rule.
The wife was incredulous; considering she was a Div 1 captain of the Big South Conference Champion team she played for, she felt just fine playing against intramural level dudes.
What did she do? She would goal out about every game (girls could only score 3 times or something) and then go back to playing more defensive mid than offensive. There were times when, just before she ripped the crap out of the ball at some out of shape 40 year old goalie, she would actually say, "Worth 2! Way to go, assholes." She also recruited a Harvard grad and one of her college club friends and we would win some games by 8 or 9 points. In soccer.
Dubs are dubs, moral of the story.
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