Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[Brill]

There are females who make the cut, but are denied access to ... and deployment...

I think, given the GWOT and the highly specialized units tasked with executing national priorities, that pretty smart people have studied ways to reduce the signature of a tattooed muscled up American towering over the local populace overseas.

 

[Kraut783]

There is that small issue of you being male...

Are you assuming his identity? How dare you!!!!

 

[Gordus]

I think, given the GWOT and the highly specialized units tasked with executing national priorities, that pretty smart people have studied ways to reduce the signature of a tattooed muscled up American towering over the local populace overseas.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to recruit and train locals of either gender for such specific roles ? as an adversary, you'd expect that less. Plus you create a professional pool that later helps to (re)build the local armed forces. Prob saying smth that has been the get go for centuries, sorry xD

Okay fine. I'll admit, I'm mainly attracted to the idea of all-female SOF because in my head they look really darn cool. Can a man's dream come true ?

 

[Brill]

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to recruit and train locals of either gender for such specific roles ? as an adversary, you'd expect that less.

I know several former “locals”, who left their homeland and became US citizens, who are aiding this country achieve its goals.

 

[AWP]

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to recruit and train locals of either gender for such specific roles ?

My country has a bad habit of doing just that, but then leaving the locals behind when we leave.

 

[Gordus]

My country has a bad habit of doing just that, but then leaving the locals behind when we leave.

I figure that's where other Alliance members come in, and I guess if the US didn't care at all, there wouldn't even be efforts to find a replacement. Of course I can only speak for a country I know and where this is the case.

It is still unfortunate when you hear from ppl who command such units, that current develoments should have already taken place 10 years ago. But hey, it's always better late than never right. So, no hard feelings. Okay maybe a little.

But this is going way off-topic.

 

[arch_angel]

The path to IOC v. Ranger School for Women Service Members has been significantly different.

They were still doing this at 1AD when I was there, women volunteers were OPCONNED to the Divisional Pre-Ranger course for a period of two months before going through division pre-ranger. Then went through Pre-Ranger at Bliss. Following completion of that they had a recovery period and went to Warrior Training Center at Ft Benning and went through the National Guard's Pre-Ranger course. If they passed that, they returned to Home-Station for Recovery for roughly one-month to six-weeks and then classed up to Ranger School at Ft Benning. Previous to the establishment of the 1AD Pre-Ranger course, they had a TACON attachment to DIV HQ where the women Volunteers spent 4+ months away from their units. The training path for any male Soldier at 1AD was pretty much a solo event until he went through DIV Pre-Ranger.

Mind,Marine IOC was open to women volunteers well before Ranger School was. The course was changed, likely to allow women to complete the course (or so it was said). This is opinion, but it's in this thread. You could say that Standards across the board were basically lowered. The Endurance Course-12 Hour Endurance Run and Obstacle Course previously was an entrance requirement to Marine IOC. Unlike ABOLC or IBOLC for the Army, there is no in-processing on Day 1 because Marines selected for IOC following TBS class up into IOC Prep. Basically a period of getting super fucking fit so that they can sustain the chronic load that IOC puts on Marines. The E-Course ate up Male Marine Officers, I think the figure was previously like 15-20% of an IOC class would get a new MOS following the the failure of the E-Course. Well, now the E-Course is no longer a pass/fail requirement. There were a few women to pass the E-Course before they changed this requirement. However, those that did usually had to physically withdraw because IOC is tough and it was breaking their bodies down. IOC today is still extremely tough course and the numbers show it.

They are different courses (both hard as shit), but the prep periods seem to be completely different approaches.

Another course to look at that's been open a long time and few British Women Soldiers and Marines have passed over time is the Royal Marine Commando Course. The data on this stuff is pretty succinct. The ROI isn't really there, but if you took the Marine or British path, I don't think you're investing that much extra time or money. But the Army's approach has pulled Women Officers and Senior NCOs away from their units for significantly longer periods than is expected of their male counterparts.

Hey brother, I'm here to tell you.... Every part of the CET is still a requirement for entrance into IOC. If you fail a hike during IOC you're dropped. Don't make the time hacks on the CET, boarded and usually dropped. The Marine Times articles that were published on 'lowering standards' was a complete crock of shit.

My class alone had over 40 drops (3 of them females). The next class had about 60 drops (all males).

By no means am I saying that course is harder than any other cause honestly idc either way. My point is, the standard at IOC has not been adjusted to make it any easier. In fact, they ADDED a 12 mile hike to the POI while I was there (conveniently) so if anything it's gotten even more difficult.

Academically, if you fail exams, you get boarded (and usually dropped). There's alot of misinformation out there, just wanted to set the record straight.

 

[Devildoc]

@arch_angel , thanks for the gouge. A lot of us have been out a minute so what a lot of us hear is from media, so it's dated, biased, incomplete, etc. It's helpful to hear relevant and timely info.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Hey brother, I'm here to tell you.... Every part of the CET is still a requirement for entrance into IOC. If you fail a hike during IOC you're dropped. Don't make the time hacks on the CET, boarded and usually dropped. The Marine Times articles that were published on 'lowering standards' was a complete crock of shit.

My class alone had over 40 drops (3 of them females). The next class had about 60 drops (all males).

By no means am I saying that course is harder than any other cause honestly idc either way. My point is, the standard at IOC has not been adjusted to make it any easier. In fact, they ADDED a 12 mile hike to the POI while I was there (conveniently) so if anything it's gotten even more difficult.

Academically, if you fail exams, you get boarded (and usually dropped). There's alot of misinformation out there, just wanted to set the record straight.

Just going by what's been announced by HQMC: Passing Combat Endurance Test is no longer required for infantry officers

Marine Corps Quietly Drops Major Obstacle to Female Infantry Officers

 

[Marauder06]

Just going by what's been announced by HQMC: Passing Combat Endurance Test is no longer required for infantry officers

Marine Corps Quietly Drops Major Obstacle to Female Infantry Officers

"TECOM officials said the data shows the overall attrition rate for the combat endurance test was not high."

...except for the women candidates. Then it was very close to 100%.

But hey, at least no one is lowering standards, right?

 

[arch_angel]

Just going by what's been announced by HQMC: Passing Combat Endurance Test is no longer required for infantry officers

Marine Corps Quietly Drops Major Obstacle to Female Infantry Officers

Those are the exact articles I'm referring to. Marine Times is not known for reporting accurate information, and the Military.com site referenced them as a source.

As of July '18, we had quite a few dudes get dropped immediately following the CET (which included a double-o with rope climbs).

You may have to take my word for it, those requirements are still there.

 

[Devildoc]

Well, there are standards, then there are standards. Every school I've been through and most of the units I was in minimum standards would not keep you in. I am curious how many women meet the standards, but minimally so?

 

[arch_angel]

Well, there are standards, then there are standards. Every school I've been through and most of the units I was in minimum standards would not keep you in. I am curious how many women meet the standards, but minimally so?

From my class we had 2 that passed the CET but were dropped later on during one of the hikes. One of them outperformed 80% of the class during the CET, she was an animal. Unfortunately she was also of small stature and broke her hip carrying a 240.

Surprisingly, there's not a lot of interest from a lot of female Marine officers to attend IOC. A lot more of them opt for arty/tracks/combat engineers. TBS has a funny way of opening your eyes to how much you may or may not want to spend extensive amounts of time in the field.

 

[ThunderHorse]

From my class we had 2 that passed the CET but were dropped later on during one of the hikes. One of them outperformed 80% of the class during the CET, she was an animal. Unfortunately she was also of small stature and broke her hip carrying a 240.

Surprisingly, there's not a lot of interest from a lot of female Marine officers to attend IOC. A lot more of them opt for arty/tracks/combat engineers. TBS has a funny way of opening your eyes to how much you may or may not want to spend extensive amounts of time in the field.

The physical demands of IOC are pretty intense. Before they changed that requirement no woman had graduated IOC. There about 5 or 6 that made passed the E-Course. But, similar to the Marine you pointed out broke something else along the way. But that's why Marine Infantry officers are studs.

 

[Teufel]

"TECOM officials said the data shows the overall attrition rate for the combat endurance test was not high."

...except for the women candidates. Then it was very close to 100%.

But hey, at least no one is lowering standards, right?

The CET was not a one shot pass/fail event when I attended IOC in 2003. You could remediate it.

 

[WILAX]

We have had some TACP grads- no one close on Control or PJ.

So there has been a female TACP grad? AF times put out an article FEB 2019 stating a female could graduate sometime in the spring from the school house.

 

[amlove21]

So there has been a female TACP grad? AF times put out an article FEB 2019 stating a female could graduate sometime in the spring from the school house.

Multiple ALO. 3-4? I’d have to check.

 

[AWP]

Multiple ALO. 3-4? I’d have to check.

One of them sits about 15 feet from my desk. Small world.

ETA: she said there are 4: 3 still AD and one went to the Guard.

 

[Johca]

Unlike CRO and STO the TACTICAL AIR CONTROL PARTY OFFICER (changed from ALO, effective 30 April 2019) utilizes an intermediate (13L2) qualification (always has since the 13L ALO AFSC was established) between entry and qualified.

From Air Force Officer Classification Directory, 30 April 2019:
3.3.4. 13L3.
3.3.4.1.  Completion of Basic ALO Skill Course (BASC).

Do any of the multiple female ALO's hold award of 13L2 (Intermediate) or 13L3 (qualified) specialty code and a JTAC Special Experience Qualifier (9C, 9D, 9E)?

ALO and TACP Tier 2 Operator Fitness Test Guidance Memorandum is attached. Not a particularly robust or strenuous fitness test.

BTW, JTAC qualification and certification on the enlisted TACP side of the house isn't mandatory core qualification requirement until award of the 5-skill level.

 

[Brill]

One of them sits about 15 feet from my desk. Small world.

“She hot?”